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killing peaceful secessionists


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#41 twylyght

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:36 AM

And no one will bother them if they go about their business and don't break the law.

If the break the law, then they will be arrested. No military personnel will open fire on them, they will simply go to jail.


and if the "law" they break is unconstitutional, they are wrongly imprisoned. hence another reason for the idea of secession... hence the very reason that secession conditions were included with the signing of the constitution

#42 thatlookseasy

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:40 AM

explain to me where my own hypothetical is wrong


Well, to start with most Americans are so unconcerned with the government that they dont vote, so I have a hard time believing that 80% of a state could agree on anything, much less something as big as secession.

Simply saying, "but what if people were completely different than they are" doesnt make it an argument.

I suppose you cant technically be "wrong" about a hypothetical, but if you're going to make a completely implausible hypothetical at least make it on an interesting subject. A better one would be- "If Hurricane Sandy was actually a disease and instead of raining on people it turned them into zombies, should the rest of the country try to take back the North Eastern US or just quarantine the area and nuke it. And if so does that count as seceding"

#43 twylyght

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HUDDLER

Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:45 AM

Well, to start with most Americans are so unconcerned with the government that they dont vote, so I have a hard time believing that 80% of a state could agree on anything, much less something as big as secession.

Simply saying, "but what if people were completely different than they are" doesnt make it an argument.

I suppose you cant technically be "wrong" about a hypothetical, but if you're going to make a completely implausible hypothetical at least make it on an interesting subject. A better one would be- "If Hurricane Sandy was actually a disease and instead of raining on people it turned them into zombies, should the rest of the country try to take back the North Eastern US or just quarantine the area and nuke it. And if so does that count as seceding"


i guess you're right. it's so implausible that it's never happened before.... or ever will again

#44 NanceUSMC

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:45 AM

zero i would hope. It is their right to peacefully protest and freedom of speech protects them.



Now let's add slightly to that...

Let's say there are enough of those peaceful protesters that the desire of the state to secede was actually the majority opinion, and secession was actually plausible...

What level of force is then acceptable to ensure the continuity of the Union? Or, if that's the majority, should the US just let them go?

#45 Davidson Deac II

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HUDDLER

Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:48 AM

and if the "law" they break is unconstitutional, they are wrongly imprisoned. hence another reason for the idea of secession... hence the very reason that secession conditions were included with the signing of the constitution



If they were unconstitutional, then seccession might be the right move, although it would not be peaceful under any circumstances.

The basic flaw in it though is that the vast majority of people don't understand the constitution well enough to determine if something is or is not constutional. Take taxes for example. As Justice Roberts said, congress has the right to require individuals to pay taxes. There is no serious legal opposition to that right. Yet we still see some individuals contest the government's right to collect taxes.

#46 thatlookseasy

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:49 AM

i guess you're right. it's so implausible that it's never happened before.... or ever will again


Yeah, I sure remember SC peacefully seceding

#47 Davidson Deac II

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HUDDLER

Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:56 AM

If I understand the OP correctly, the question can be simplified to one distinct meaning:

How many military individuals here would be willing to fire on peacefully protesting civilians wishing to secede, in order to preserve the Union?



Yours is a much easier question to answer as the OP added to many caveats. :)

I doubt many military members would be willing to fire on "peacefully" protesting civilians under any circumstances. If they were given orders to do so, most would likely follow those orders, but I don't think most officers would give those orders. But if state governments were to participate in seccession, then the police perhaps with military backing, would move in to arrest those state officials, and at that point, it would likely turn into a non peaceful movement.

#48 NanceUSMC

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:02 PM

One thing I do like about this discussion, is that it adds a touch of modern thought and tangibility to just how chaotic the events of 1860 must have been... We're just talking about secession... They did it... Imagine how 'bad' things were, or how 'bad' they felt things were to actually go through with what followed...

#49 twylyght

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HUDDLER

Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:05 PM

If they were unconstitutional, then seccession might be the right move, although it would not be peaceful under any circumstances.

The basic flaw in it though is that the vast majority of people don't understand the constitution well enough to determine if something is or is not constutional. Take taxes for example. As Justice Roberts said, congress has the right to require individuals to pay taxes. There is no serious legal opposition to that right. Yet we still see some individuals contest the government's right to collect taxes.


and you are correct in that the vast majority of americans haven't even given the constitution a once over, much less a dedicated study. you'll notice i did not mention a protest against the colletion of taxes, but of how those taxes are misappropriated by constitutional standards.

as an aside, i noted that justice roberts did not address that issue while adding his own context regarding constitutional bases for collecting said taxes.

so, the original assertion stands. if the populace had changed to the point of seeking secession peacefully on constitutional grounds, would an order of force by the commander in chef compel you to fire on said secessionists?

#50 Inimicus

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:09 PM

again, as stated before. not a 50-50 split within the seceeding states.



Doesn't matter if its 60-40 or even 70-30 in favor of separation. If you want a peaceful separation then there will have to be provisions made for making those who want no part of it whole. If you want it to be peaceful then that means buying them out. Otherwise people will defend their homes and farms and businesses by force if necessary and when the separatists respond in kind you can bet Uncle Sam will be there with his F-22s.

The only way this hypothetical would stand a snowballs chance in hell of being both peaceful and successful would be to buy people out.


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