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John Gruden and QB development


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#1 teeray

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:55 PM

One of the big arguments I keep hearing against John Gruden as the Panther's next coach has been:
"Name one QB John Gruden has developed. Just ONE!!!"

Now I don't really want Gruden as our next coach but I think this line of thinking is a bit off base. To me, it comes down to what your definition of "developing a QB" is.

For example, Rich Gannon was an average at best QB and mostly a backup in Minnesota and Kansas City for 11 seasons.

In 1999 Gannon and Gruden team up in Oakland and then Gannon goes on to win an MVP award (2002), goes to 4 straight Pro Bowls (1999-2002), has 3 All-Pro selections (2000-2002), and 3 AFC player of the year awards (2000-2002).

Brad Johnson went to Tampa Bay after being basically dropped by Minnesota and Washington.

He had a very average year in 2001 with Tampa Bay. In 2002 with Gruden he suddenly becomes a Pro Bowler, leads the league in INT% and becomes a Super Bowl winning QB.

Now, I am not sure what some of your guys definition of "developing a QB" is. If you mean a guy he drafted and developed into a Pro Bowler I guess you would be correct. I don't look at it that way.

Something has to be said about a guy who took QBs that were average or even bad QBs that had been dropped by other organizations and then developing them into MVP QBs, Pro Bowlers, and Super Bowl winning QBs.

If he came here to Carolina he wouldn't have to draft a QB. He has a QB. He would just have to develop him the same way he did Gannon and Johnson.

#2 Gabeking

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:00 PM

If you want a QB developer look at Tom Clements (and not just the job he did with the packers, either)

#3 PhillyB

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:02 PM

so many metrics go into the success of a football team that it makes it extremely difficult to examine the skills of a particular coach based on W/L percentages and individual performances. they're definitely good indicators, but not precise. how does one factor in, say, the team left behind by the previous front office? there are people who say gruden fell into a situation where dungy did all the dirty work building the team's core talent and all gruden had to do was come in and hold the steering wheel straight, and once he got to the point of having to build the team on his own and sustain success he repeatedly failed.

i'm not on the 'gruden would be a turrible coach' train by any means but there's a lot more to look at when analyzing a coach's influence on success. correlation =/= causation.

#4 Pimpdaddy

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:07 PM

a lot of good QBs are a by-product of the system....kinda wonder what would have happened with Brady if he went to the Browns...or Detroit...guess we'll never know. Gruden is a good x and o's coach with a minor in psychology...he can motivate you but he might break u.....

#5 Ivan The Awesome

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:10 PM

Tampa's defense won that game. Johnson was basically tampa's Trent Dilfer.

#6 teeray

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:10 PM

so many metrics go into the success of a football team that it makes it extremely difficult to examine the skills of a particular coach based on W/L percentages and individual performances. they're definitely good indicators, but not precise. how does one factor in, say, the team left behind by the previous front office? there are people who say gruden fell into a situation where dungy did all the dirty work building the team's core talent and all gruden had to do was come in and hold the steering wheel straight, and once he got to the point of having to build the team on his own and sustain success he repeatedly failed.

i'm not on the 'gruden would be a turrible coach' train by any means but there's a lot more to look at when analyzing a coach's influence on success. correlation =/= causation.

That is true but in 2001 with Dungy Tampa Bay was 9-7 and in 2002 with Gruden they jump to 12-4.

Johnson went from being very average in 2001 to being a Pro Bowler in 2002 and winning a Super Bowl.

In 2003 Johnson had a rough year (26 TDs and 21 INTs) and was the scapegoat for a 7-9 season. He was replaced the next season and Tampa Bay never had another QB with any real talent the rest of Gruden's tenure (Simms, Griese, Gradkowski, and Garcia). I mean Garcia was decent, and Tampa went 18-14 with him at QB, but the other 3 QBs no coach would have won with. Those QBs had no talent to develop.

#7 teeray

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:14 PM

Tampa's defense won that game. Johnson was basically tampa's Trent Dilfer.

The defense may have won that Super Bowl game. But Johnson was a Pro Bowler and had the best INT% in the NFL that season.

#8 rayzor

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:22 PM

his team hated him because he was an arrogant confrontational prick with an ego the size of alaska.

do
not
want.

#9 rayzor

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:23 PM

oh...and what has he done since 2002?

#10 Zod

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:26 PM

He took Dungy's Bucs to the basement in record time.

Do not want.

#11 rayzor

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:29 PM

how many non-juco teams have wanted him since he got fired from tampa?

#12 Way Truth Life

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:31 PM

He has a great gig right now, but to say he is not wanted and not proven is completely inaccurate. His Raiders team made it to the Superbowl against his new Bucs team. He won the game. So, basically he developed one team and won with another. He is a great coach Denying that is ridiculous.

#13 Mr. Scot

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:36 PM

The Bucs were Dungy's team.

Gruden ran that team into the ground. He played 'musical chairs' with his QBs and by the time he was done, the players were ready to mutiny rather than ever play for him again

Absolutely and emphatically, no.

#14 theyhateme45

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:37 PM

That is true but in 2001 with Dungy Tampa Bay was 9-7 and in 2002 with Gruden they jump to 12-4.

Johnson went from being very average in 2001 to being a Pro Bowler in 2002 and winning a Super Bowl.

In 2003 Johnson had a rough year (26 TDs and 21 INTs) and was the scapegoat for a 7-9 season. He was replaced the next season and Tampa Bay never had another QB with any real talent the rest of Gruden's tenure (Simms, Griese, Gradkowski, and Garcia). I mean Garcia was decent, and Tampa went 18-14 with him at QB, but the other 3 QBs no coach would have won with. Those QBs had no talent to develop.


Still, teams from one year to the next have been known to have huge swings in win loss total yearly. Given that is the case it's almost impossible and too many variables to insinuate the the added 3 wins came as a result of Gruden.

#15 teeray

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:37 PM

oh...and what has he done since 2002?

In 2005 he went 11-5 with Chris Simms as his best QB. In 2007 and 2008 he went 9-7 his with an over the hill Jeff Garcia and the other terrible QBs he had when Garcia was inevitably hurt.


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