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Quarterbacks and Coaching


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#16 Johnny Kilroy

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:00 PM

I'm not sure you can put a number on it. Each case is very unique. There are way too many variables to try and diagnose failing QBs as whole.

Russell: Lack of work ethic, so put it on the player. He's never had to compete and got by on his physical strengths alone. When getting to the NFL, that wasn't going to fly.

Leaf: He was a head-case. Mentally, I don't think he was where he needed to be. So a lot of it has to be placed on him.

Carr: I personally didn't think he was #1 overall worthy. So you can blame him for busting, but I personally felt he wasn't going to be that great. People had too high expectations.

Clasuen: I think most of the blame is on him. He really wasn't given the best opportunity but it was still evident he is a work in progress.

#17 rayzor

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:22 PM

none of those guys had it.
none of those guys could handle the job.
none of them.

carr would have caved eventually. coaching might have helped. better oline might have helped. but then it might have just hidden the fragile psyche that already existed a bit longer. he was eventually going to crack under the pressure.

i'm of the persuasion that those who can make it in the league, find a way to make it happen.

leaf and russell were cut from essentially the same cloth. they were drafted because their teams and most analysts at the time were willing to overlook an overall lack of talent and intangibles because they saw this big QB with a cannon for an arm and the teams that drafted them mistakenly thought that they could coach them up and teach them how to be a QB.

jimmy clausen and brady quinn are pretty close the same QB. talent wasn't there. they just came from an over-hyped program.

i'm gonna go ahead and throw yo gabba gabba in there as well. he/s kind of the opposite of leaf and russell. he had the intangibles, i guess, but he didn't have the talent. people thought that he could be coached up enough. i said that he is one of the few that would have needed to sit for a few years, but even then i doubted it would be worth it. he shouldn't have been drafted as early as he was, regardless of where he was actually drafted or where draftniks thought he should be. in his senior year he looked like jimmy clausen as 2010 clausen.

weinke....drafted because he was older and more mature than most. given the starting job so early because of that. that doesn't make one a good QB, though. he's a case of being a better teacher/coach than a player.

#18 Mr. Scot

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:24 PM

So here's where I once again disagree with a lot of folks.

I think every single one of the guys named in this thread could indeed have become a productive starter in the NFL with the right coaching.

Leaf could have been saved if he'd had a stronger hand, a Parcells type perhaps, to keep his ego in check.

David Carr? Absolutely. He needed someone who would teach him how to read defenses and more time to adjust. The Texans gave him neither.

Even Jimmy Clausen would have had a much better chance had he gone somewhere like Philly, a West Coast system with a well-known QB teacher who could have helped adjust his tendencies and cover his limitations.

JaMarcus Russell? Yep. Even JaMarcus might have become a good NFL QB in a system that wasn't so dysfunctional as the Raiders. Landing in Oakland, he pretty much had no chance.

Heck, I even think Vince Young could have been saved.

See, I put the general ratio of coaching to player at 80-20. That's why I think the vast majority of high round NFL busts are coaching failures, not player failures.

And yeah, that's probably about where I'd put Newton's issues right now too, though you could make an argument for 70-30.

#19 Johnny Kilroy

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:35 PM

There's no way you can put a number on it like that. I think you give coaches give way too much credit in transforming certain players. There's some things you just can't teach like motivation and having the right mindset. At least not to all players.

Yes, coaches can fine tune some things, that's obviously their job. But to diagnose all failing QBs because of inept coaching can't always be the case.

Could Carr, Clausen, Russell, etc. failed because of coaching? Yes. But you can be a really good coach and still not have all your QBs succeed. It just doesn't work that way. Sometimes it's out of their hands and they have done all they could do.

#20 rayzor

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:42 PM

btw...russell didn't exactly start right away. it wasn't until the end of the year.

why? because he was more interested in signing a giant contract than trying to play. right away you could tell where his heart was and it wasn't in the game.

#21 Mr. Scot

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:49 PM

If Newton winds up failing, are you gonna put him in the category of one of those guys who "just couldn't make it happen" too? That doesn't square very well with what I've heard you say on here before.

Ask yourself this: Why was Drew Brees mediocre in San Diego but elite in New Orleans?

The difference is coaching. And specifically, quarterback coaching, which I'd argue is at a low these days.

Ultimately, yes. I believe any guy who's good enough to merit a first round - or even a second round - draft pick can be molded into a quality NFL starter with a coach that knows the right way to handle him.

Sadly, there aren't as many of those guys around these days as there once were, and QB play around the league shows it.

#22 CRA

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:22 PM

Brees wasn't mediocre in SD.

He went 11-4 his second to last year. 27 TDs, 7 INTs. Went 9-7 his last season.

He pretty much was Brees before leaving SD. He was maturing.......if Brees spent his entire career in NO he would have had a slow start just like he did in SD. Happens with young guys. Elite QBs learn to be elite.....they are just coached out of the gate to be it. Few exceptions but they are exceptions....not the blueprint to follow.

The Brees and Eli path is realistic and the only one worth worrying about

#23 rayzor

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:25 PM

i think that if newton doesn't or can't improve as a passer, QB, or a decision maker, or even as a leader in the next couple years, then yes, it very well could be that he can't handle the job. he's got the tools. he's got to do better with them and he needs help with it. we saw enough, though, his rookie year to know that he has the skills to make it so i'm not even going to entertain that thought further.

some guys are just bad. others aren't. but either way, coaching can only help so much.

#24 Lumps

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 08:36 PM

It depends on the QB.

#25 TheRed

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:15 PM

My word Mr Scot...

None of these bums listed should be in the same sentence as Drew Brees, and I LOATHE him and the Saints.


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