46 replies to this topic

[koolkatluke]

Ben Gordon is a SG and Duhon backed up Hinrich the whole time he was in Chicago.

So, who's spinning the truth?

Ben Gordon handles the ball just as much as any PG and Chris Duhon was getting pretty good Minutes a game for a back-up. Not to mention that Kirk just like Ben played SG to.

http://espn.go.com/n...377/chris-duhon

http://espn.go.com/n...81/kirk-hinrich

Now pick up your face.

[RedMage138]

Ben Gordon handles the ball just as much as any PG and Chris Duhon was getting pretty good Minutes a game for a back-up. Not to mention that Kirk just like Ben played SG to.

http://espn.go.com/n...377/chris-duhon

http://espn.go.com/n...81/kirk-hinrich

Now pick up your face.

Saying that Chris Duhon was the 6th main in Chicago proves what exactly? He still backed Hinrich up.

And this still has nothing to do with your original argument.

[koolkatluke]

Saying that Chris Duhon was the 6th main in Chicago proves what exactly? He still backed Hinrich up.

And this still has nothing to do with your original argument.

What about the fact that Hinrich was just as much of a SG as Ben Gordon? Which they have him listed as just like Ben Gordon.

As for the original Debate. Like I said Hinrich was more of a avg pg/sg. So the team Drafted a pure PG (Rose) as a need.

I issued a challege that I can name more teams that drafted for need in the last 10 years. Then you can name teams that drafted BPA.

Either step up or shut up.

[ZB1224]

Not that this really matters, because I would draft BPA over need just about anytime, but Kirk was definitely the main ball handler, and the PG of those Bulls teams. Gordon was their main scorer and mostly a catch and shoot guy that could still create his own shot. Kirk is only listed as a SG right now, because that's what he's played the last few years. I think that teams generally draft for need early on (unless there is a much better player available), and draft BPA in the latter part of the draft.

[koolkatluke]

Not that this really matters, because I would draft BPA over need just about anytime, but Kirk was definitely the main ball handler, and the PG of those Bulls teams. Gordon was their main scorer and mostly a catch and shoot guy that could still create his own shot. Kirk is only listed as a SG right now, because that's what he's played the last few years. I think that teams generally draft for need early on (unless there is a much better player available), and draft BPA in the latter part of the draft.

Stats say different.

1. In 5-7 less min per game Duhon was avg. 1 less ast. Who was the Primary Ball handler when Duhon was in the game?
Duhon

2. Gordon and Hinrich were taking the same amount of shots a game. So there were no set position in the backcourt (unless Duhon was in there) either of them could bring the ball up or could start the play.

3. Kirk ast. numbers went down when Duhon and Gordon got on the team.
His rookie year was his highest 6.8 a game. The numbers declined when Duhon and Gordon was drafted the next year. Showing he gave up some of the pg guard duties.

Doesn't change my point If Kirk was so good at PG. Why were the Bulls always looking for better options? They drafted a pure PG and a PG/SG the next year.

http://espn.go.com/n...81/kirk-hinrich

http://espn.go.com/n...2381/ben-gordon

http://espn.go.com/n...377/chris-duhon

Now I agree teams go for need in the lottery and BPA later in the 1st round.

[ZB1224]

Stats say different.

1. In 5-7 less min per game Duhon was avg. 1 less ast. Who was the Primary Ball handler when Duhon was in the game?
Duhon

2. Gordon and Hinrich were taking the same amount of shots a game. So there were no set position in the backcourt (unless Duhon was in there) either of them could bring the ball up or could start the play.

3. Kirk ast. numbers went down when Duhon and Gordon got on the team.
His rookie year was his highest 6.8 a game. The numbers declined when Duhon and Gordon was drafted the next year. Showing he gave up some of the pg guard duties.

Doesn't change my point If Kirk was so good at PG. Why were the Bulls always looking for better options? They drafted a pure PG and a PG/SG the next year.

http://espn.go.com/n...81/kirk-hinrich

http://espn.go.com/n...2381/ben-gordon

http://espn.go.com/n...377/chris-duhon

Now I agree teams go for need in the lottery and BPA later in the 1st round.

Oh, I'm not disputing that Hinrich wasn't a pure PG or that he wasn't ever anything more than a better than average NBA starting PG.

Duhon had a usage rate of between 13% and 15%. His assist % was between 24% and 28%. His Assists Per 36 Min was between 6 and about 6 and a half assists per game.

Hinrich had a usage rate between 18% and 22%. His assist % was between 29% and 32%. His Assists Per 36 Min was between roughly 6 and a half to 7.

While Gordon only took a couple of more shots per game than Hinrich did, they did have set positions. Hinrich was the PG (who could slide over to the 2-guard spot at times because of his size), and Gordon was a SG who wasn't capable of playing PG. Hinrich's assist numbers went down very very very slightly, but that is to be expected when you add a solid PG (at the time) in Duhon, and a 2-guard who needs the ball in his hands a little bit in Gordon. Even with Duhon and Gordon on the team, Kirk's assist numbers only went down by 0.5-0.6 assists per game (per 36 min), and actually the season before Rose arrived, he was averaging 6.8 assists per 36 min, which would match his career high. Rose was drafted the following year (picked because of a mix of him being BPA and because they could upgrade at the PG position, although it wasn't necessarily a "need").

[RedMage138]

As for the original Debate. Like I said Hinrich was more of a avg pg/sg. So the team Drafted a pure PG (Rose) as a need.

I issued a challege that I can name more teams that drafted for need in the last 10 years. Then you can name teams that drafted BPA.

Either step up or shut up.

It doesn't matter. If you're trying to argue that Chicago drafted Rose for need and not because he was the BPA, you'd probably argue that Minny took Williams and Utah drafted Enes Kanter out of need.

You're, literally, too stupid to argue with.

[Captain Morgan]

there are no absolutes, but generally, since big men are more valuable, teams
will take a talented big even if they don't need them. They have higher trade value,
and make more expensive bigs on the roster become trade bait too.

[thatlookseasy]

Krik was avg. and Rose was the hometown kid. Olny YES! YES! YES! thought it might be Beasley. Most people knew Rose was doing to Chicago.

Rose came off taking his team to the National Championship game. How did Beasley have a better college year then Rose?

Love and Jefferson are seen as 2 different Positions. Jefferson is a C and Love is a PF. They could have and should be playing together. Minny GM is just stupid. They wasted picks on 2 Pg in the same draft Back to back. With Demar Derozen still on the board.

Beasley had a much better college season, and would have been the national player of the year if it werent for Hansbrough taking most of the honors that year. Rose was a better fit from an NBA perspective, but some poeple thought Beasley should go 1. By the time the draft finally came around though everyone knew Chicago was picking Rose.

I dont know how you can claim Minny should be playing Jefferson and Love together. They tried that, didnt work (possibly could have worked on offense, no chance on defense), so they had to move Jefferson.

[koolkatluke]

It doesn't matter. If you're trying to argue that Chicago drafted Rose for need and not because he was the BPA, you'd probably argue that Minny took Williams and Utah drafted Enes Kanter out of need.

You're, literally, too stupid to argue with.

Like I said dumbass. Over and over again I can name more teams in the last 10 years that drafted for need then BPA.

Either take the challege or run away with your tail between your leg.

[koolkatluke]

Beasley had a much better college season, and would have been the national player of the year if it werent for Hansbrough taking most of the honors that year. Rose was a better fit from an NBA perspective, but some poeple thought Beasley should go 1. By the time the draft finally came around though everyone knew Chicago was picking Rose.

I dont know how you can claim Minny should be playing Jefferson and Love together. They tried that, didnt work (possibly could have worked on offense, no chance on defense), so they had to move Jefferson.

Beasley was just like Harold Arceneaux at Weber st. A player putting up great numbers on a bad team.
Rose as a freshman led a team to the national championship game (one Mario Chamlers shot from winning it). Now you can say Beasley had better numbers he did. But Rose had a better season if W-L is the most important thing?

2. What is the difference from what they are doing now in Minny? Pekovic isn't know as a great or even good defender. Actually Jefferson is a way better rebounder and shot blocker. So in reality they would be better inside now if they had stuck with the Love/Jefferson Combo.

[thatlookseasy]

Beasley was just like Harold Arceneaux at Weber st. A player putting up great numbers on a bad team.
Rose as a freshman led a team to the national championship game (one Mario Chamlers shot from winning it). Now you can say Beasley had better numbers he did. But Rose had a better season if W-L is the most important thing?

2. What is the difference from what they are doing now in Minny? Pekovic isn't know as a great or even good defender. Actually Jefferson is a way better rebounder and shot blocker. So in reality they would be better inside now if they had stuck with the Love/Jefferson Combo.

Uh, no. Beasley was absolutely nothing like some random-ass player from Weber fuging St, he put up better numbers than Kevin Durant in the big 12. He was also 2nd in almost every player of the year award.

Just because Minny replaced Jefferson with a pile of poo doesnt mean Love and Jefferson fit together. They didnt, which is why nobody questioned their decision to trade him to Utah

[koolkatluke]

Uh, no. Beasley was absolutely nothing like some random-ass player from Weber fuging St, he put up better numbers than Kevin Durant in the big 12. He was also 2nd in almost every player of the year award.

Just because Minny replaced Jefferson with a pile of poo doesnt mean Love and Jefferson fit together. They didnt, which is why nobody questioned their decision to trade him to Utah

Beasley was a good player in college but he was in no way going to Chicago. 1. they already had Louol Deng. 2. Derrick Rose was the hometown guy who just led a team to a national Championship game. Not to mention he has been traded how many times now?


Again not my fault Minny has a dumb FO. They would have a better Front court with Jefferson then with Pekovic.
What is the difference in what Utah is doing with there front court? Love is a way better player but him and Millsap have same type skill sets. And the Jazz have been making the playoffs and the Timberwolves haven't. Maybe Minny would be making the playoffs more often if they kept Jefferson and Love togehter.

[thatlookseasy]

Beasley was a good player in college but he was in no way going to Chicago. 1. they already had Louol Deng. 2. Derrick Rose was the hometown guy who just led a team to a national Championship game. Not to mention he has been traded how many times now?


Again not my fault Minny has a dumb FO. They would have a better Front court with Jefferson then with Pekovic.
What is the difference in what Utah is doing with there front court? Love is a way better player but him and Millsap have same type skill sets. And the Jazz have been making the playoffs and the Timberwolves haven't. Maybe Minny would be making the playoffs more often if they kept Jefferson and Love togehter.

Just because its an easy decision in hindsight doesnt mean it was so simple at the time.

Utah doesnt know what they are doing with their frontcourt, which is why they have multiple top-3 picks as their back-up bigs. And for what its worth, Utah went from a 53 win team to 39 wins and missed the playoffs after trading for Jefferson.

[koolkatluke]

Just because its an easy decision in hindsight doesnt mean it was so simple at the time.

Utah doesnt know what they are doing with their frontcourt, which is why they have multiple top-3 picks as their back-up bigs. And for what its worth, Utah went from a 53 win team to 39 wins and missed the playoffs after trading for Jefferson.

It was simple at the time that's why they made it.

D Rose and Deng was a better choice then Hinrich and Beasley.


They have made the playoffs which Minny hasn't and have been a better team. If Minny would have kept the Love - Jefferson Combo I have no doubt they would be a better team today.