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Overlooked stat for Cam


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#166 Marguide

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:57 AM

The idea that we are running the actual Air Coryell is also just not true either so the WCO vs Air Coryell discussion was moot form the get go anyway. We are running the spread option 80% of the time, mostly out of pistol, with a highly concentrated dose of zone read pass/run plays, with very little of what Chud's Air Coryell looked like in San Diego or the original Air Coryell with Dan Foust. Our offense resemble's Auburn offense a lot more than it does the Air Coryell. Go see how many times Dan Foust lined up in the pistol or even shotgun in his career.


You just don't listen and learn.

We are not running plays "mostly out of the pistol". The pistol is not the same as a shotgun formation. We typically run maybe 70% of our plays out of the gun now. Earlier in the year, it was above 80%. But few of these are out of the pistol.

You always try to win arguments by putting out a greater volume of words. It might be better if you spent more time watching the games and less looking at meaningless stats.

#167 jayflip

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:00 AM

If every huddler puts this guy in ignore, it's almost like banning him.

#168 ReturnOfPFFL

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:26 AM

You just don't listen and learn.

We are not running plays "mostly out of the pistol". The pistol is not the same as a shotgun formation. We typically run maybe 70% of our plays out of the gun now. Earlier in the year, it was above 80%. But few of these are out of the pistol.

You always try to win arguments by putting out a greater volume of words. It might be better if you spent more time watching the games and less looking at meaningless stats.


Fine I'll keep it short. Please stop, because it's clear to me you have no idea how little relevance your observation has to this discussion or our previous discussion or when I am making that statement.

Our shotgun and pistol plays are interchangeable. The fact is our QB always lines up about 4-5 yards back every single time, which is one of the staples of the pistol formation, as you yourself even pointed out, yet failed to actually notice.

We actually almost NEVER run the traditional shotgun. It's not made to run. It's primary design is to pass.

Our "shotgun", when running a spread option offense, is dual purpose, designed for our running quarterback. Whether we run the pistol, weak pistol, inverted deer, read option, double option, triple option, the philosophical difference is we have the ability to RUN our QB. It's as much of a running formation as it is a passing play.

They all fall under the spread option, and gives you the same advantage any other spread option play with a dual pass/rush QB gives you, which is something you failed to understand from the get go.

As I told you 2 weeks ago, you are grasping at straws and splitting hairs over something that has NO relevance and no effect on the main point being discussed. The point of our discussion last time was the fact Cam doesn't need to drop back to pass when in these formations, and benefits from the 1 man advantage the spread option gives you and whether he is in the pistol, or any of the other spread option plays, he doesn't need to drop back to pass...unlike when he is under center. The more complex footwork and timing requirements are not there in the any of the shotgun formations.

#169 Marguide

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:35 AM

Fine I'll keep it short. Please stop, because it's clear to me you have no idea how little relevance your observation has to this discussion or our previous discussion or when I am making that statement.

Our shotgun and pistol plays are interchangeable. The fact is our QB always lines up about 4-5 yards back every single time, which is one of the staples of the pistol formation, as you yourself even pointed out, yet failed to actually notice.

We actually almost NEVER run the traditional shotgun. It's not made to run. It's primary design is to pass.

Our "shotgun", when running a spread option offense, is dual purpose, designed for our running quarterback. Whether we run the pistol, weak pistol, inverted deer, read option, double option, triple option, the philosophical difference is we have the ability to RUN our QB. It's as much of a running formation as it is a passing play.

They all fall under the spread option, and gives you the same advantage any other spread option play with a dual pass/rush QB gives you, which is something you failed to understand from the get go.

As I told you 2 weeks ago, you are grasping at straws and splitting hairs over something that has NO relevance and no effect on the main point being discussed.


As usual, lots of words to try to cover up the fact that you do not know what you are talking about, and it is painfully obvious you have not spent enough time watching the Panthers play.

Time for you to go on ignore.

#170 ReturnOfPFFL

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:36 AM

As usual, lots of words to try to cover up the fact that you do not know what you are talking about, and it is painfully obvious you have not spent enough time watching the Panthers play.

Time for you to go on ignore.


Whatever you say Mr. Cam stayed under center last year....and I'm the one he says doesn't watch games.

And it's a good idea. My discussion are over your head. You actually need at least basic counting ability to participate. Save yourself the trouble from getting involved. ;)

#171 SuperMan

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:46 AM

What a.... ummm... errrr... *cough*... "lovely" couple?


They look related.

#172 teeray

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 12:57 PM

Who said I think all spread option offenses are the same? Why are you putting words in my mouth? However, they are all the same in concept. You, oth, believe we're actually running the Air Coryell.

Rusell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick, Cam Newton, RG3, The Golden Calf of Bristol(last year) are all running a lot of spread option plays. Cam and RG3 run it religiously.


Spread option is a type of offense, the read option is a type of play. Just because there is read option plays in an offense, that doesn't mean you are running a spread option offense.

For example, you can run the read option in with two tight ends on or at the line of scrimmage. Or even with a fullback as a lead blocker and a tight end on the line of scrimmage. Or even a bunch formation. Those are not spread formations.

You seem to think that just because a team plays from the shotgun, pistol, or has read option plays, that means they are running a spread option offense. That is false. We are running AC passing routes and running an AC offense, even if it is out of the shotgun or even though we incorporate read option plays into the AC offense.


So you are talking about intermediate passing game, not the deep ball. OK, nobody was arguing about this. The claim was Andy can't throw it deep. That's what we are arguing about.


The stat is called % deep. Not % intermediate. That is for a reason.

Of course a QB in the WCO is going to have a higher percentage of passes under 10 yards and a lower percentage of intermediate passes. It's made to simulate and complement the run game not get 1st downs or yardage on every pass attempt. You pass short to set up the run. That's the idea behind the offense. That doesn't mean the dude can't throw it deep. But if you are only looking at attempts, it only says what they are being asked to do. You still have to look at completion % to see if they are any damn good at it. And you should still check to see who they are doing it against(again, Andy's facing Pittsburgh and the Ravens twice a year).


And comparative to the rest of the league, Dalton isn't very good at it. I would say the only people he is performing better than is Kolb, Skelton, Gabbert, Bradford, and Weeden.

The WCO, has always required accurate, precise quarterbacks with exquisite footwork and a high ability to read defenses with a quick release. You have to be almost robotically consistent to run it right and it's one of the hardest offenses to master, so the idea that somehow running the WCO is now a "dink and dunk" unimpressive offense, is just something that makes you feel better about Cam Newton. And that is what's clear to me. Joe Montana ran the west coast offense. Tom Brady started out in the WCO. Steve Young. Aaron Rodgers. Even Bret Farve.

There are a lot of QBs that are great that ran a lot of different offenses. The WCO can make terrible QBs like Alex Smith seem palatable. It is a good offense. I don't have an issue with a WCO, but it is a dink and dunk offense that usually carries with it a higher completion percentage. Again Alex Smith has a 70% completion percentage. Doesn't mean he is the best and most accurate QB in the NFL. Or that he is a WCO master. That is also why he got benched despite completing 70% of his passes.

The fact is the WCO is associated with an elite class of QB's, and it requires a certain level quarterback to even attempt to run it, and that also has something to do with the high completion % associated with it.


And that is just a bunch of hyperbolic bullshit.

And you know what's not impressive to me for a passing QB? 16 passing touchdowns in week 14 and 2 4th quarter comebacks over the span of 29 games most of which were lost by less than 7 points. Or how about the fact the 2 minute offense is in danger of extinction in Charlotte?

Are you impressed with that?


And I think that is both a fair criticism and very misleading. You aren't going to have as many 4th quarter comebacks as some other guys when your team just tied an NFL record for most consecutive games without a 4th quarter shutout.

For instance, in all of these 4th quarter comebacks that Mr Luck has had have been great and he deserves credit for those.

But to give perspective to it and how it related to the Panthers lets look at how many points teams scored in the 4th quarter against the Colts in those comebacks and look at Luck's game winning drives and provide some context to each.

Minn- game winning drive was a good one, but it took a 53 yard field goal at the end of regulation. Not saying that to discredit Luck here, just that his kicker made a long one to help him out. Panthers have no such kicker.

GB- 7 points allowed in 4th. Nothing to say about this one except Luck made great plays and won the game.

Tenn (game 1)- 3 points allowed in 4th. Luck tied the game with 3:24 left in the gaame. Defense held to go to overtime

Miami- Luck had the game winning drive by putting the Colts up by 3 with 5:58 to play. Defense held the lead

Buffalo- this wasn't a comeback or a game winning drive. Just wanted to note that Colt's defense held a 7 point lead the last 11 minutes of that game.

Detroit- held them to 3 points in the 4th quarter. Luck made some great plays in this one also and deserves all the credit. But it certainly helps when your defense shuts the other team down in the fourth quarter

Tenn (game #2)- 4th quarter comeback. 53 yard field goal give Colts the lead with 6:00 to play. Defense held that lead.

So let me ask you this question. How may times have we either had a one score lead or taken the lead in the 4th quarter with 3+ minutes left to play in a game and how many of those games did the defense hold that lead??

Because the Colts defense did it 4 times. 3 of which went down as 4th quarter comebacks and GWD for Luck

We lost those types of games against ATL, Dallas, Chicago, and Tampa.

When have we had a kicker that could get us a 53 yarder when we needed one. We didn't even attempt it against Chi and we missed another one against Tampa that would have iced that game.

If we hold the Dallas, ATL, and Chi games that would add 3 4th quarter comebacks and two more GWD for Cam.

BTW have you ever seen such a collection of garbage teams in a 9-4 team's win column. 1 quality win and that was at home after a BYE. But I digress.

My point is that while I do think it is a fair criticism of Cam, it is also a stat that is wildly misleading as Luck's defense had timely stops with a lead in the 4th and ours has not. The Colts also happen to have a kicker that is a difference maker and has been a major asset to Andrew Luck, we have had no such kicker these last 2 years.

#173 MaineManPanther

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 02:00 PM

So you are talking about intermediate passing game, not the deep ball. OK, nobody was arguing about this. The claim was Andy can't throw it deep. That's what we are arguing about.


His 33.3 percentage on 20+ yard passes is 25th in the league. Not been good at it this year.




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