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10 Christ-like Figures Who Pre-Date Jesus

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Posted

I always hear people say this. Know what I don't hear? Evidence that Jesus existed.

I asked the self professed biblical scholar for some, and all he can say is that there is evidence that Pilate existed.

I didn't ask about Pilate.

It's absolutely absurd to claim it's a tough claim to take on when there are literally 0 eyewitness or otherwise written accounts about these events until everyone supposedly involved was long dead.

i can't remember any of the sources off the top of my head by name so i'm not gonna claim absolute knowledge or infallibility... but there have been a number of historical texts besides the bible that mention his existence. i don't think many people attempt to dispute that.

but i'm not appealing to mass opinion, so i'll come back with the sources when they're available to me.

also at least two of the synoptics are dated to within the lifetime of the writers having seen jesus and interacted with him in their lifetimes. keep in mind also the historical context of information dissemination back then, with oral tradition playing a major part, one way or another, in how we examine the accuracy of claims

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Posted

Again... For non-believers, the question should not be whether Jesus existed, the question for you is whether he did the works that are attributed to him.

This isn't that hard for those of you who have refused to research this before out of fear that there is indeed something greater than our own puny human brains:

The Christian gospels were written primarily as theological documents rather than historical chronicles.[129][130][290] However, the question of the existence of Jesus as a historical figure should be distinguished from discussions about the historicity of specific episodes in the gospels, the chronology they present, or theological issues regarding his divinity.[21] A number of historical non-Christian documents, such as Jewish and Greco-Roman sources, have been used in historical analyses of the existence of Jesus.[288]

Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed and regard events such as his baptism and his crucifixion as historical.[8][12][14][291][292][293][294] Robert E. Van Voorst states that the idea of the non-historicity of the existence of Jesus has always been controversial, and has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines, and that classical historians, as well as biblical scholars now regard it as effectively refuted.[15] Referring to the theories of non-existence of Jesus, Richard A. Burridge states: "I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more."[17]

Separate non-Christian sources used to establish the historical existence of Jesus include the works of 1st century Roman historians Josephus and Tacitus.[288][295] Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman has stated that "few have doubted the genuineness" of Josephus' reference to Jesus in Antiquities 20, 9, 1 and it is only disputed by a small number of scholars.[289][296][297][298] Bart D. Ehrman states that the existence of Jesus and his crucifixion by the Romans is attested to by a wide range of sources, including Josephus and Tacitus.[299]

The historical existence of Jesus as a person is a separate issue from any religious discussions about his divinity, or the theological issues relating to his nature as man or God.[300] Leading scientific atheist Richard Dawkins specifically separates the question of the existence of Jesus from the attribution of supernatural powers to him, or the accuracy of the Christian gospels.[301] Dawkins does not deny the existence of Jesus, although he dismisses the reliability of the gospel accounts.[301] This position is also held by leading critic G. A. Wells, who used to argue that Jesus never existed, but has since changed his views and no longer rejects it.[302]

In antiquity, the existence of Jesus was never denied by those who opposed Christianity and neither pagans nor Jews questioned his existence.[128][303] Although in Dialogue with Trypho, the second century Christian writer Justin Martyr wrote of a discussion about "Christ" with Trypho, most scholars agree that Trypho is a fictional character invented by Justin for his literary apologetic goals.[304][305][306] While theological differences existed among early Christians regarding the nature of Jesus (e.g. monophysitism, miaphysitism, Docetism, Nestorianism, etc.) these were debates in Christian theology, not about the historical existence of Jesus.[307][308] A very small number of modern scholars argue that Jesus never existed, but that view is a distinct minority and virtually all scholars view theories that Jesus' existence was a Christian invention as implausible.[21][292][309]

Wiki ftw...

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Posted

i can't remember any of the sources off the top of my head by name so i'm not gonna claim absolute knowledge or infallibility... but there have been a number of historical texts besides the bible that mention his existence. i don't think many people attempt to dispute that.

they should start until evidence is provided.

but i'm not appealing to mass opinion, so i'll come back with the sources when they're available to me.

also at least two of the synoptics are dated to within the lifetime of the writers having seen jesus and interacted with him in their lifetimes. keep in mind also the historical context of information dissemination back then, with oral tradition playing a major part, one way or another, in how we examine the accuracy of claims

this would be major news to me. i've heard of no claim of anyone ever writing an eyewitness account of Jesus, from no biblical scholar or historian, ever.

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Posted

Again... For non-believers, the question should not be whether Jesus existed, the question for you is whether he did the works that are attributed to him.

This isn't that hard for those of you who have refused to research this before out of fear that there is indeed something greater than our own puny human brains:

Wiki ftw...

If you've researched this so much more than me then surely you can provide an account of Jesus written by someone who lived at the same time as him.

The person cited in the thing you quoted, Josephus, was born after Jesus died. He wasn't an eye witness.

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Posted

Don't tell me what the question "should be" or "shouldn't be" until you actually prove something. You're demanding concessions out of the gate without putting up any effort. Doesn't work that way. Prove your claims.

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Posted

Don't tell me what the question "should be" or "shouldn't be" until you actually prove something. You're demanding concessions out of the gate without putting up any effort. Doesn't work that way. Prove your claims.

I didn't address you or anyone else directly rodeo. I was just providing evidence of his existence. I'm not demanding concessions either. I'm not in limbo on what I believe. I don't know why your issue is with Jesus?

How many of the guys on the list in the first post are backed by "eye witness accounts?" Lol. How many are backed by credible, verifiable accounts during or after death (if those figures even truly existed).

That section I quoted states scholars, you know, most of whom probably aren't Christians, concur that Jesus existed.

So you dispute what hundreds of scholars unanimously agree on?

I'm not saying I've done more research than you, but those guys have. And I'm sorry to report, they didn't find any Flip Videos of Jesus, but they agree he was a real being on this Earth.

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Posted

Wrong about Genesis...but when they ate from the tree they were aware, conscious...It was called the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.

Evil existed so why is God the one decieving his creations? So if Satan's mango(the fruit) IS knowledge Capital G forbid Adam and Eve(not Steve) to eat it...this is the the seed of Faith. To believe without evidence.. IMO, A major lesson to not steer to far from an authority figure to prevent questioning, seeking knowledge bc it will be "EVIL"

In the King James Version the Apocrypha books were ommited: there are a lot of stories based in folklore which help contridict other parts.. So yes they did omit it. Why? Why would a King want to omit something and edit a Divine book? The dead sea scrolls prove the Hebrew manuscripts of a few of these books. I know .. Satan put them there.

1 Esdras

2 Esdras

Tobit

Judith

Additions to Esther

Wisdom of Solomon

Ecclesiasticus

Baruch

Letter of Jeremiah

Prayer of Azariah

Susanna

Bel and the Dragon

Prayer of Manasseh

1 Maccabees

2 Maccabees

When it comes to the books, there are different reasons why some are accepted and others weren't. Some books were simply lost over time. (As I mention both the OT and NT mention texts that are not in the KJV Bible) Take Tobit for example. That book was never considered canonical by the Jewish people. Basically the first five books of the Bible are the most important in terms of OT times. Then you had the writings of the prophets and so forth. I'm very sure there are more writings that were inspired by God, but a lot of them were lost over time. That doesn't make any of the books we have right now, less inspired.

We know people wrote fake Gospels, people probably wrote fake books around the time of the OT as well. What we have now is good, the other books that are not in the KJV, will be good to study. Again some of them are inspired, others are fakes.

You don't want me to get started on explaining Genesis. You wouldn't understand it, so I'll leave that alone for now.

If you've researched this so much more than me then surely you can provide an account of Jesus written by someone who lived at the same time as him.

The person cited in the thing you quoted, Josephus, was born after Jesus died. He wasn't an eye witness.

There are plenty of eye witness accounts within the NT. Peter's letters, James' letter, and John's letters. Besides, again an eye witness account to you is useless. What difference does it make whether or not there are eye witness accounts? Would you believe them? I doubt it.

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Posted

Interesting timeline of Jesus and historical timelines.

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Posted

with the exception of Jesus in this list, which other person are some of you guys TRULY following? otherwise you are just throwing stones for no productive reason.

tell me about your walk with Hindu, or Buddha or any of the others. how have they transformed your life and what is about them that makes it attractive to me or anybody else here?

i got time. go ahead.

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Posted

There are plenty of eye witness accounts within the NT. Peter's letters, James' letter, and John's letters. Besides, again an eye witness account to you is useless. What difference does it make whether or not there are eye witness accounts? Would you believe them? I doubt it.

Holy crap you suck at this. Peter's letters are a first hand account of Jesus, even though they were letters to Asia Minor about Christian persocution there when Christianity wasn't even established there for decades or centuries until after Jesus and Peter were long dead.

if you can't even prove that the dude even freaking existed just what exactly do you base your whole belief system on? this is basic, entry level stuff and you can't provide even a shred.

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Posted

Just pretend I'm a potential convert. I'm interested in learning more about your religion and I ask you about this historical figure and the first hand accounts of these amazing things he did.

"Um, well there is evidence that Pilate existed" doesn't cut it, but I'm still really interested, so I'm open to some solid factual foundation to build my new belief system on. If I'm going to walk with Jesus, I need to know I'm not just crazy and it's not just a scam; so show me the hard evidence that this guy was real.

I think you can do it if you're willing to put the work in.

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Posted

Holy crap you suck at this. Peter's letters are a first hand account of Jesus, even though they were letters to Asia Minor about Christian persocution there when Christianity wasn't even established there for decades or centuries until after Jesus and Peter were long dead.

if you can't even prove that the dude even freaking existed just what exactly do you base your whole belief system on? this is basic, entry level stuff and you can't provide even a shred.

Christianity spread throughout the region. We know Paul traveled through those areas multiple times. So it doesn't matter whether or not Christianity was established in those areas, it was definitely there in Asia Minor. These guys said they heard Jesus preach, and saw the things He did. I have good reason to believe what they saw truly happened. I look at the world today, and can see many of the things they talk about within ourselves. I also see the history of Israel, and how they were able to come back into the land after being exiled for so long. People might say the jewish people came back into the land because religious western countries helped them, well that is saying something if you ask me. That God's message spread so much, that it was actually His message that brought them back into the land of Israel. God used His word to bring about His promises.

Ultimately, everything lines up, and more evidence is being uncovered.

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