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The reason Rivera shouldn't return.

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[color=#333333][font=Arial, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Panther coach Ron Rivera is 2-5 in Sept, 1-7 in Oct, 3-4 in Nov and 5-3 in December.” Tom Sorensen [/background][/size][/font][/color]

[url="https://twitter.com/RosinskiBill"][b]Bill Rosinski[/b] ‏[size=3][s]@[/s][b]RosinskiBill[/b][/size][/url][color=#333333][font=Arial, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]
As the Panthers steamroll the Chargers I think about Ron Rivera's record in games that count, games when you have a shot at the playoffs...[/background][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#333333][font=Arial, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]
[size=4]This year that record was 3-9. QB Matt Moore was 4-1 as a starter. The games meant nothing. This is the decision the owner needs to make[/size][/background][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#333333][font=Arial, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]
[url="https://twitter.com/daringantt"][b]Darin Gantt[/b] ‏[size=3][s]@[/s][b]daringantt[/b][/size][/url][/background][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=Arial, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]
In terms of Ron Rivera's future with Panthers, I think today's game shows why a change is needed. This could have been happening long ago.[/background][/size][/font][/color]

[color=#333333][font=Arial, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]It baffles me that some of you guys feel like the Panthers have turned a new leaf or something. What we are watching this month is fools gold. which is completely what Rivera has demonstrated. We simply can't win when it matters. The first three months of the season tells the whole story on why Rivera shouldn't be retained. At best, Rivera team will be just mediocre just like Norv Turner team. I'm the type of guy that gives credit when credit is due and I think Rivera has done a good job with the defense. I just don't feel Rivera has showed me enough to believe that he should stay. The only way I would even consider him to stay is if we finish 7-9. Even then I would be very skeptical.[/background][/size][/font][/color]
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Greg Hardy wants him back:

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/dec/17/tp-carolina-comes-off-field-with-complete-victory/

[quote]“I hope he’s here to stay,” Panthers defensive end Greg Hardy said of Rivera. “I’m going to play my heart out for him.” [/quote]
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[quote name='fieryprophet' timestamp='1355756023' post='2050607']
Greg Hardy wants him back:

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/dec/17/tp-carolina-comes-off-field-with-complete-victory/
[/quote]

Wow. If Rivera leaves, you best believe there won't be a hometown discount come contract time.

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Most player love him...LaFell clearly said they all jump through a wall for him and that the right plays have been called at critical moments...players just did not execute them..he cited at the time.
1.)the 3rd and 1 Newton Fumble to ice the game, Punt on the 1..Nakas facepalm.
2.)Cam throwing the ball in the dirt on the rollout against the seahawks.
3.) ill add Lafell's TD drop against the Cheifs on the post pattern.

That is three wins...not lost due to coaching but due to player execution or lack of.
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[quote name='Bj-Monster23' timestamp='1355755800' post='2050600']
[color=#333333][font=Arial, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Panther coach Ron Rivera is 2-5 in Sept, 1-7 in Oct, 3-4 in Nov and 5-3 in December.” Tom Sorensen [/background][/size][/font][/color]

[color=#333333][font=Arial, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]It baffles me that some of you guys feel like the Panthers have turned a new leaf or something. What we are watching this month is fools gold. which is completely what Rivera has demonstrated. We simply can't win when it matters. The first three months of the season tells the whole story on why Rivera shouldn't be retained. At best, Rivera team will be just mediocre just like Norv Turner team. I'm the type of guy that gives credit when credit is due and I think Rivera has done a good job with the defense. I just don't feel Rivera has showed me enough to believe that he should stay. The only way I would even consider him to stay is if we finish 7-9. Even then I would be very skeptical.[/background][/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]

I think you look at it at the end of the season....weigh the options on who may be available and go from there.There is a risk in bringing in another coach.Its not as easy as bringing in a FS.

I am not disagreeing but would like the benefit of the last 2 games.

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[quote name='fieryprophet' timestamp='1355756023' post='2050607']
Greg Hardy wants him back:

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/dec/17/tp-carolina-comes-off-field-with-complete-victory/
[/quote]

Player feelings do factor in to this kind of decision.

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Players didn't want Hurney fired either.
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Call me an old school guy, but ALL wins matter to me, so I just can't get with that argument. In the end, there is only one champion, so I guess in keeping with this line of thinking I can ask the question (half-way tongue-in-cheek, half-way serious): Does any win really matter except one, when you get right down to it? Anyway...

To keep, or not to keep? That is the question. It will be answered by the new GM. I am not gonna cry either way. No one really knows the answer. There are certainly positives and negatives either way. Familiarity breeds contempt, but continuity stands for something. This will just have to be something that plays itself out and time will have to answer. The only thing I know for certain is that in the end there will be a lot of "I-told-you-sos" that won't really matter.
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Cam also will probably lobby for him as well, Cam is on a roll lately, and I'm pretty sure a new coaching staff may stunt his growth as a QB.
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Hmmmmmmmmm...this will be tough come offseason..

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[quote name='Bj-Monster23' timestamp='1355755800' post='2050600']
[color=#333333][font=Arial, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Panther coach Ron Rivera is 2-5 in Sept, 1-7 in Oct, 3-4 in Nov and 5-3 in December.” Tom Sorensen [/background][/size][/font][/color]

[url="https://twitter.com/RosinskiBill"][b]Bill Rosinski[/b] ‏[size=3][s]@[/s][b]RosinskiBill[/b][/size][/url]
[color=#333333][font=Arial, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]As the Panthers steamroll the Chargers I think about Ron Rivera's record in games that count, games when you have a shot at the playoffs...[/background][/size][/font][/color]

[color=#333333][font=Arial, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(245, 245, 245)][size=4]This year that record was 3-9. QB Matt Moore was 4-1 as a starter. The games meant nothing. This is the decision the owner needs to make[/size][/background][/size][/font][/color]

[color=#333333][font=Arial, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(245, 245, 245)][url="https://twitter.com/daringantt"][b]Darin Gantt[/b] ‏[size=3][s]@[/s][b]daringantt[/b][/size][/url][/background][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#333333][font=Arial, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]In terms of Ron Rivera's future with Panthers, I think today's game shows why a change is needed. This could have been happening long ago.[/background][/size][/font][/color]

[color=#333333][font=Arial, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]It baffles me that some of you guys feel like the Panthers have turned a new leaf or something. What we are watching this month is fools gold. which is completely what Rivera has demonstrated. We simply can't win when it matters. The first three months of the season tells the whole story on why Rivera shouldn't be retained. At best, Rivera team will be just mediocre just like Norv Turner team. I'm the type of guy that gives credit when credit is due and I think Rivera has done a good job with the defense. I just don't feel Rivera has showed me enough to believe that he should stay. The only way I would even consider him to stay is if we finish 7-9. Even then I would be very skeptical.[/background][/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]

I agree with this argument to continue a process to find a successor. IMO you have to privately target a vision with a few coaches that you will go after(after a GM is hired of course) If they are unavailable you maintain the integrity and authority of the current staff and support moving forward...not to change for the sake of change.

So for me even big names are not an upgrade to Rivera just an expensive WOW hire like :

[b]Cowher [/b](too removed from the game, passion/hunger is less), NO!

[b]Gruden[/b](innovative and knows the Panthers roster well, destroyed the Bucs quick after the Superbowl win and had a lack of eye for QB talent.( he loved BLANE GABBERT and implementing the West coast offense takes a few years.) NO!

[b]Bruce Arian[/b](really?)

upgrades at WR, second TE O-Line will change a lot of things...for wins.

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It's going to come down to whoever we want for the new GM.

If we have the perfect fit at GM lined up and he wants Rivera gone he is going to to be gone IMO. That's the variable here that noone can predict but I highly, highly, doubt that we will allow Rivera having good games when it doesn't matter for us cost us a GM candidate.

There is more that goes into this decision than just what we see on the field Sunday / hear from players.

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LOL Come on most players are going to always say things like I want the HC to stay and we love him. But behind closed doors it a whole other world on how the players feel about him. I don't know how they feel behind closed doors. But bottom line who is JR going to do this for. The fans and their money and a better chance a wining a SB soon or for a bunch of players. If these players don't want to play for another HC next year and if that is the case. Then tell them to pack their bags and leave town. Because as a true fan of this team. I'm sick of the losing seasons and I'm tired of seeing the same old teams run the tables in the playoffs each year. Like New England and the 49ers. I want our team to be there each year. But sorry to say I don't Ron has the tools to get us there. It's time to make the change. Like they say. It is about the business and not the person. If the players can't accept him leaving at years end if he goes. Then hit the road with him. I want players who will play hard every down no matter who the HC here next year.

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[quote name='mwright350' timestamp='1355757190' post='2050638']
It's going to come down to whoever we want for the new GM.

If we have the perfect fit at GM lined up and he wants Rivera gone he is going to to be gone IMO. That's the variable here that noone can predict but I highly, highly, doubt that we will allow Rivera having good games when it doesn't matter for us cost us a GM candidate.

There is more that goes into this decision than just what we see on the field Sunday / hear from players.
[/quote]


I think JR will make the call and yes I think he will get input from the players. Rivera has said JR has given him the conditions of his future employment and said that wins would play a huge part so who knows

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[quote name='Mr. Scot' timestamp='1355756543' post='2050627']
Player feelings do factor in to this kind of decision.
[/quote]Some what. But when it comes to your fan base getting tired of losing season after season. Also you are losing money left and right because people don't want to come to games because of the losing. Then the owner has to side with the fan base and go with a change at HC. IF Ron can get above the amount of wins he had in his first year. Then something is wrong. Fox came in year one and went 7-9. Then the next year Fox took his team to the SB. Yet Ron can't mange to even get to the 500 mark or better in his second year. I've seen very little progress as a whole for this team. Yes after we are out of the playoffs this team finally showing improvement. But it was that way last year as well. So what is happening currently doesn't mean crap. Plain and simple.

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Sometimes we give players the 3 year rule to see if they are a bust or not. Why do we not extend the same to the coaches? Look at Pete Caroll and the seahawks in his 3rd year. After 2 seasons of 7-9 mediocrity, they just posted two consecutive 50+ wins, are going to the playoffs with a 10-6 or 11-5 record, and they look downright scary right now. Scary and young; as in they're going to be good for a few years to come.

Rivera certainly had some growing pains, but I have to admit I like what I've seen lately when it comes to his decision making. He hasn't called any questionable game time decisions that I can recall in the past few weeks. He's putting young players in during a lost season to see what we have, regardless if he'll be here next season or not. That's pretty risky and could certainly be counter to the 'win now and save my job' mentality. But it's shown to be paying off decently; we've had some good play from players I didn't even know were on the team. If this was Fox and company we'd have signed back Chris Harris to play safety and we wouldn't see DJ Campbell showing potential. AND the players haven't quit on him and have even said they want him to stay. That's pretty big.

Chud's been calling good games as well, even with the 'washed up' Williams. He seems to be understanding how to use Cam correctly too.

There are signs that it's coming together for this staff and team; we beat down the Falcons team who just thoroughly manhandled the previous superbowl team. We beat a chargers team that consistently kicks ass in december, and at their place no less. I think two more games like the last few and this crew deserves one more year.

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[quote name='Pantherman' timestamp='1355758015' post='2050643']
Some what. But when it comes to your fan base getting tired of losing season after season. Also you are losing money left and right because people don't want to come to games because of the losing. Then the owner has to side with the fan base and go with a change at HC. IF Ron can get above the amount of wins he had in his first year. Then something is wrong. Fox came in year one and went 7-9. Then the next year Fox took his team to the SB. Yet Ron can't mange to even get to the 500 mark or better in his second year. I've seen very little progress as a whole for this team. Yes after we are out of the playoffs this team finally showing improvement. But it was that way last year as well. So what is happening currently doesn't mean crap. Plain and simple.
[/quote]

JR isn't losing money, stadium has sold out 103 in a row, 104 Sunday.

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Guys players aren't going to come right out and speak ill of the dead. The closest you'll get is Charles Johnson going on a drunken rant on twitter about it.

Firing hurney was the final nail. You can't attract anyone half serious about the GM job and tell them they can't hire a coach.

Unless accorsi likes what he sees, pulls a dick Cheney and nominates himself.
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Im really starting to think Rivera should get another year. Chud needs to be canned, or change something. I think Chud and other coaching is a bigger problem then Rivera.

He should get a third year if we win the next 2 games.

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If you're giving Ron another year because of how the team has played, how does that same courtesy not extend to chud?

Cam has been the first or second best qb in the nfl since the break, and the offense has been steam rolling people.

This is with the critical injury to Ryan kalil!
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[quote name='Fiz' timestamp='1355758519' post='2050662']
If you're giving Ron another year because of how the team has played, how does that same courtesy not extend to chud?

Cam has been the first or second best qb in the nfl since the break, and the offense has been steam rolling people.

This is with the critical injury to Ryan kalil!
[/quote]

That's the issue right there though

We are in complete Chargers mode.

We lose to 1-11 and beat 11-1...that's all you have to know about this team imo.

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You either keep everyone or fire anyone.

The only person immune to regime change is Sam mills III, and he's just the damn get back coach.

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[quote name='k1lljoy_89' timestamp='1355758332' post='2050657']
Im really starting to think Rivera should get another year. Chud needs to be canned, or change something. I think Chud and other coaching is a bigger problem then Rivera.

He should get a third year if we win the next 2 games.
[/quote]Wait... What? How are completely blaming Chud for this. Ron is the HC and he has the power to change things on this team at any time. If Ron failed to step in and say ha Chud less change things up and do something different to get this team a change of pace to get things rolling. But did Ron do that way earlier in the season? No he didn't. Ron is the HC and his the one that should be blamed for not working more closely with his staff to change things when what your doing is not working in the first place. Yes blame Chud for some of the play calling and stuff. But blaming Chud for all this and not blaming Ron is dumb. Ron is in charge of the team and the coaching staff. He needed to step in and change something or work with his staff to do so. But Ron failed to do so. So Ron is mostly to blame for things not changing until late in the season that finally got this team going. Sorta!!

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Ugh, I dont get you guys on here. When I was saying lose out for a draft pick all you guys said "Wowz, you are not true fan of the Panthorz!! Get the fug off this board" Then when we win you guys are like "noooo, Rivera must not return, these wins are meaningless and mean nothing!"

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Let's be clear, here. This isn't Madden where you can just hit a reset button.

You bring in an entirely new coaching staff, you're starting over from scratch. Newton and the rest of the players have to learn a new offense, defense, etc. I know some will say "just hire a guy with a similar system" as if it were that simple. It isn't. The terminology is different. The approach is different. Everybody's starting from square one, which essentially means 2011 all over again.

Lots of coaches who eventually turned into perennial winners had rough starts, but nobody's got the patience to see the hard work through these days. If you're going to pull the plug just two years in, who's going to have time to see anything through?

People have 'lottery mentality' when it comes to coaches and players. "This one wasn't an instant success? Well, let's just get a new one". You complain about mediocrity, but how is the team ever supposed to get past mediocrity if nobody ever has the time to build anything. It's the same approach Jon Gruden had with QBs, and the same one the Raiders have been using to choose coaches.

You want to start over? Fine. But understand what it is you're advocating.
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