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Steve Smith needs 105 yards


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#31 Rubi

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:55 PM

First of all I was a huge supporter of Kuechly and mentioned him on the huddle as my choice long before most of you even heard about him so spare me the details about Luke. I was the one telling all of you about him and am well aware of his abilities and limitations. And clearly you have no clue about the difference between our defense and the one he played in at Boston college or you wouldn't persist that he could walk into this defense and not have a pretty steep learning curve. And no you don't audiblize because you get a gut feeling, you audibalize because you watched film all week and studied the tendencies of the other team and worked on how to counter various formations based on down and distance. The instinct then comes in when you react to the play and flow to the ball. The difference is worrying about where you need to be versus where the other 7 guys on the front seven are going to be. By closing off options by the defense you play you try and force the offense to react to you not react to them which is the opposite of being instinctual. If you don't understand that basis concept we likely can't have a conversation.

Loyalty is where you pay your players and show the team that instead of throwing players under the bus when they get hurt you will stick with them like we did with Davis. And it paid off huge dividends. The issue with players like Williams and Stewart was not that we paid them so much but that we paid them and then didn't build the offense around them. Otherwise it became wasted money.


Ok mr one upper...learning curve...linebacker and running back are two of the easiest positions to transition coming from college. Yea I guess every move that happens on a football field is a cold calculation based on what they saw on film 100% of the time...no way that a player trusts himself to make a call or make a play based on how the game is playing out......you can defend the coaching leaving Beason in the middle....I wanted him to sit out until he was 100% healthy because we landed Luke. And no freaking poo of course you want to anticipate. It's like when I'm patrolling center field reading swings trying to get a jump on the ball so I can run down a ball over my head or in front of me....some times I take a chance it's called using my instincts based on how the at bat is going...instincts occur before and during the play...basic high level athletics here....if you can't understand that....

And what Mister Love said regarding your other statement with contracts



#32 panthers55

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:58 PM

p55 you say that we could build an offense to utilize williams and stewart enough to justify those ridiculous contract extensions as if it would be practical.


First of all the contracts have not been ridiculous up to this point. Williams who makes the lion share is getting paid 4.75 million this year as a salary. With the signing bonus the hit to the cap is roughly 8 million. Stewart as a salary is making $875,000 with a signing bonus of 1.9 million or a total of 2.75 million.

That is quite a bit but the 8 million is what the going rate is for a franchise back and Stewart has been cheap up to this point. Williams will stay the same roughly but Stewart will be making the bigger money next year.

So really the issue is not whether they were ridiculous up to now because that weren't but whether they will be next year when the costs really add up.

#33 Rubi

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:03 PM

First of all the contracts have not been ridiculous up to this point. Williams who makes the lion share is getting paid 4.75 million this year as a salary. With the signing bonus the hit to the cap is roughly 8 million. Stewart as a salary is making $875,000 with a signing bonus of 1.9 million or a total of 2.75 million.

That is quite a bit but the 8 million is what the going rate is for a franchise back and Stewart has been cheap up to this point. Williams will stay the same roughly but Stewart will be making the bigger money next year.

So really the issue is not whether they were ridiculous up to now because that weren't but whether they will be next year when the costs really add up.


Oh boy mr love is gonna rip u a new one on this I predict

#34 Frash Brastard

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:14 PM

First of all the contracts have not been ridiculous up to this point. Williams who makes the lion share is getting paid 4.75 million this year as a salary. With the signing bonus the hit to the cap is roughly 8 million. Stewart as a salary is making $875,000 with a signing bonus of 1.9 million or a total of 2.75 million.

That is quite a bit but the 8 million is what the going rate is for a franchise back and Stewart has been cheap up to this point. Williams will stay the same roughly but Stewart will be making the bigger money next year.

So really the issue is not whether they were ridiculous up to now because that weren't but whether they will be next year when the costs really add up.


spoiler alert: they won't produce enough next year to justify what we're paying for them to be on the team

not with the way teams are able to get more production out of their backs with far less investment. our backs are against the ceiling financially and we're going to have to do some retarded cap gymnastics just to keep our emerging players in the coming years, let alone bringing in quality FAs to make us more competitive.

#35 Frash Brastard

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:16 PM

doubles

#36 panthers55

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:18 PM

Ok mr one upper...learning curve...linebacker and running back are two of the easiest positions to transition coming from college. Yea I guess every move that happens on a football field is a cold calculation based on what they saw on film 100% of the time...no way that a player trusts himself to make a call or make a play based on how the game is playing out......you can defend the coaching leaving Beason in the middle....I wanted him to sit out until he was 100% healthy because we landed Luke. And no freaking poo of course you want to anticipate. It's like when I'm patrolling center field reading swings trying to get a jump on the ball so I can run down a ball over my head or in front of me....some times I take a chance it's called using my instincts based on how the at bat is going...instincts occur before and during the play...basic high level athletics here....if you can't understand that....

And what Mister Love said regarding your other statement with contracts

First of all linebacker is not easy in every scheme. Your overgeneralizations suggest you know enough to be a casual fan but don't really understand the interworkings of our defense. Otherwise you would know that in a JIm Johnson scheme everyone on the team has to be accountable on every play and they have multiple responsibilities that take time to learn and understand. And your whole understanding of what you call instincts is totally unrelated to audibalizing on a play in response to the offense changing formations at the line of scrimmage before a snap. You set up the defense based on down and distance based on the offensive formation. Then you look for certain tells such as where the guard goes which on this formation means they are running to the outside or running a draw, etc. So the defense lines up to defend that formation. And the whole center field thing is again throwing random things on the wall hoping to make a point. We could also discuss what you think is instincts is the result of careful film work, superior athletic ability and intelligence or we can go with your centerfield gobbledegoop.

Lets agree to disagree because I have no desire to go back and forth about the finer points of the game when only one of us has any clue what we talking about,

#37 panthers55

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:24 PM

spoiler alert: they won't produce enough next year to justify what we're paying for them to be on the team

not with the way teams are able to get more production out of their backs with far less investment. our backs are against the ceiling financially and we're going to have to do some retarded cap gymnastics just to keep our emerging players in the coming years, let alone bringing in quality FAs to make us more competitive.


You keep making the case about what we should have done years ago and that is really water under the bridge. Hurney was fired for reasons, one of which I suspect was giving big bucks to Williams and Stewart and not having the OC on the same page. Either Williams or Stewart would be fine to keep, but without a big running game not both. Still with Stewart on IR, you can make the case that without both of them this year we would have been screwed. The issue is thati if we ran the scheme we did in 2008 the cost would be justified. But not in the present scheme which doesn't require 2 elite backs given that Newton is our primary runner.


It will be interesting to see whether we change our philosophy under a new GM and suddenly spend big bucks, or keep the same overall philosophy.

But lets keep in mind that William's and Stewart's cap space is roughly equivalent to either Kalil or Gamble both of whom are on IR and totally wasted as well.

#38 panthers55

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:25 PM

Oh boy mr love is gonna rip u a new one on this I predict

And like usual you would be wrong....

#39 panthers55

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:28 PM

You keep making the case about what we should have done years ago and that is really water under the bridge. Hurney was fired for reasons, one of which I suspect was giving big bucks to Williams and Stewart and not having the OC on the same page. Either Williams or Stewart would be fine to keep, but without a big running game not both. Still with Stewart on IR, you can make the case that without both of them this year we would have been screwed.

The issue to me is that you can't pay premium prices for players who you only use sparingly. If we ran them like 2008, it would be fine but we went to a sscheme that doesn't require 2 great running backs.

It will be interesting to see whether we change our philosophy under a new GM and suddenly spend big bucks, or keep the same overall philosophy.

But lets keep in mind that William's and Stewart's cap space is roughly equivalent to either Kalil or Gamble both of whom are on IR and totally wasted as well.



#40 jarhead

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:29 PM

Go get it Smitty

#41 Frash Brastard

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:33 PM

You keep making the case about what we should have done years ago and that is really water under the bridge. Hurney was fired for reasons, one of which I suspect was giving big bucks to Williams and Stewart and not having the OC on the same page. Either Williams or Stewart would be fine to keep, but without a big running game not both. Still with Stewart on IR, you can make the case that without both of them this year we would have been screwed.

It will be interesting to see whether we change our philosophy under a new GM and suddenly spend big bucks, or keep the same overall philosophy.

But lets keep in mind that William's and Stewart's cap space is roughly equivalent to either Kalil or Gamble both of whom are on IR and totally wasted as well.


p55 the water isn't under the bridge, we're still neck deep in it. 8 million is the going rate for a franchise back, yes. but aren't we assuming a bit here? where is this idea that it's necessary to have a franchise back to be competitive coming from?

it's hard enough to manage talent on a team without blowing a ton of money on multiple players at one position that isn't even critical for success in today's league. that's the burden hurney leaves us with.

#42 Rubi

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:34 PM

First of all linebacker is not easy in every scheme. Your overgeneralizations suggest you know enough to be a casual fan but don't really understand the interworkings of our defense. Otherwise you would know that in a JIm Johnson scheme everyone on the team has to be accountable on every play and they have multiple responsibilities that take time to learn and understand. And your whole understanding of what you call instincts is totally unrelated to audibalizing on a play in response to the offense changing formations at the line of scrimmage before a snap. You set up the defense based on down and distance based on the offensive formation. Then you look for certain tells such as where the guard goes which on this formation means they are running to the outside or running a draw, etc. So the defense lines up to defend that formation. And the whole center field thing is again throwing random things on the wall hoping to make a point. We could also discuss what you think is instincts is the result of careful film work, superior athletic ability and intelligence or we can go with your centerfield gobbledegoop.

Lets agree to disagree because I have no desire to go back and forth about the finer points of the game when only one of us has any clue what we talking about,


You just skimmed over the surface of what any defense attempts to do...without actually going into any specific detail...whats your point? i guess you need to discuss the most basic, fundamental ideas behind what a defense in football is hoping to accomplish to try and save whatever it is you're trying to say. You don't believe "instincts" occur before the snap....I disagree. I feel like in any sport, instincts and thought processing co-exist and occur, esp. In football and baseball where you have breaks in the action...its called taking a "risk"....as an outfielder would anticipate solid contact sending the ball over one's head...or in football anticipating a sweep left...so I guess because I disagree with you that must mean I am simply not as knowledgeable as you when it comes to the X's and O's of football. Talk about generalizing or assuming...

#43 Rubi

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:05 PM

Panthers55:

Thinks Kuechly runs the offense
Thinks Beason was healthy to start season even though he missed preseason
Thinks the RB contracts on this team are ok...

You're right...no sense in arguing with someone who has no clue what they're talking about

I'm done

#44 Frash Brastard

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:39 PM

You've come a long way Rubi. Just a few short months ago you were advocating the contract extensions.

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#45 Rubi

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:48 PM

You've come a long way Rubi. Just a few short months ago you were advocating the contract extensions.

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This was before we decided to let Cam be our leading rusher and before we went with an option as our base offense. I had no issue signing 2 talented players if we were going to run an offense that utilized them/justified the amount of $ given to them. Clear disconnect between the GM and what staff attempted to do with this offense. We don't have the Receiving options in my opinion to run a west coast NE or spread GB type offense...we had a stable of RBs, paying an ass ton of $ to them...yet they each get the ball 7 times a game...doesn't make sense...that's my problem with that

Hell with Williams, Stewart, Tolbert we should be running a backfield with all 3 on the field at the same time

Would you agree?


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