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Proudiddy

The Problem With Our Fanbase

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I wanted Rivera fired so bad I even was okay if we lost yesterday to moleface and his crew. I know I'm sorry guys for saying that, but Rivera don't need to comeback.

You don't have to be sorry about saying it. I am sorry you feel that way. It tells me you have no clue what you are looking at and can't evaluate the progress of the coaches or team. Anyone who can't see the way this team has improved across the board or thinks these game are meaningless doesn't have any idea what they are watching. I promise you that both Atlanta and New Orleans wanted to beat us in the worst way. Yesterday we kept the Saints from going 8-8 and avoiding a losing season. And we won in the dome. It was a divisional rivalry and a big deal.

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The problem I have with this whole diatribe is that while I agree with some of it, I am not blaming Rivera for all of it. For example I totally agree on the offense using the read option too much and not using Williams correctly but I blame Chud not Rivera for that. after all Rivera is a defensive mind and has to rely on his OC for the offense. Adams showed why he didn't play much as he was too unreliable and unable to take a big hit without fumbling.

And the whole argument that Thomas should have started over Norman assumes that they both were ready to play at season's start. What if Norman was better as a starter early on but Thomas developed and improved to the point that by later in the season he was the better option. Then perhaps Rivera did exactly what he had to do. Put the best guy on the field on a weekly basis based on who was the best option at the time.

This bashing of Rivera is made worse by the fact that many of the arguments postulated may be looking at what happened in hindsight without any understanding about why certain guys played in some games and then were replaced by others. Not everyone who started at the end of the season were even on the team 3 months ago.

Josh Thomas had been with us since last year.

What are the chances that he spontaneously hit some huge development milestone mid-season this year when he had been here a full season and a half, IIRC?

And I don't think he replaced Norman, I believe he stepped in with Gamble's injury and Captain moving inside more often after that. Norman continued to start initially. And honestly, I saw no big change in Norman's play from the beginning of the year to his demotion. So what changed there? He was a great tackler, made great plays on the ball when he was in position, but the problem was he gave too much cushion as was rarely ever in good position.

As for Joe Adams, it's like I said... I just threw his name out there among others, in hindsight, he shouldn't have been included because he earned his demotion. I'm not a Joe Adams-guy, so to speak. I was excited when we drafted him, but that quickly dissipated early on after he started muffing punts. My bigger point was that Nakamura was doing the equivalent to what Adams was doing on defense and he wasn't deactivated.

Yes, everything on our end is done in hindsight because we don't see what is going on day-to-day at every practice. But, in a case like Nakamura's, Rivera could've suited up himself and played better than Nakamura was.

I think Rivera plays favorites, and often, it isn't justified. Deangelo IS the prime example there. The argument with Gettis on the sidelines during one of the games when he was inactive comes to mind as well. Naanee last year anyone?

As to your point about Chud being the problem offensively and with some of the personnel being misused... There's a reason Rivera is the HC. He oversees ALL OF THAT. Especially the general philosophy and approach on both sides of the ball. If what Chud was doing wasn't working, then he needed to step in and say so and change it. Instead, he threw Deangelo under the bus and rode with the read option until Hurney got fired and they went back to traditional runs against Chicago.

Rivera gets blame because he deserves blame. He told on himself numerous times in pressers that demonstrated how dysfunctional his staff was, as well as his own decision making.

No, he doesn't deserve all of the blame and I'm not blaming him for all of it. But, he should be held responsible for game-related management/decision making because he oversees all of it... Or at least he was supposed to. And when you are the head guy, as Rivera said himself, the buck stops with him.

We won a few games and now people forget all of the problems that got us in the hole we were in to begin with.

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to be fair, the late season run followed by a terrible opener the following season has only happened once under rivera. that's not a very big sample size.

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Our special teams coverge seemed to have improved but we have no talent in the return game.

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to be fair, the late season run followed by a terrible opener the following season has only happened once under rivera. that's not a very big sample size.

You're right, but when looking at it in the scope of a systematic and organization-structural problem, this has been going on well before Rivera and he continued the trend this season.

I've said it before, but it could be that the coaches aren't the problems and there may be some string pulling going on from above that has caused us so much disappointment and inconsistency. In that case, the coach won't matter - see Raiders. OR, it could be that we keep hiring the same type of coach and therefore, we get the same results within our system.

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I can't agree with that DD.

I think we have a sizeable fanbase. Even here, we have numerous fans from out of state who have no personal ties to the Carolinas.

The problem is the passion and the indifference. It leads to apathy and acceptance of mediocre results.

Look at Philly. Those fans hate Reid's guts for the most part because of what, two under-performing seasons? Dude made the playoffs nine years IIRC and took them to multiple NFCCGs in a row as well as a Superbowl.

Philly fans aren't a group that other fanbases should look to model themselves after, but my point is, they remain passionate. Not saying they're right in the Reid situation, but because they are impassioned and adamant about what they want, their owner appeases.

I don't think our fan base comes close to matching the size of the philly fan base or any other team in a big Nothern or Midwestern market. Part of that is due to a smaller population, and part is due to North and South Carolina still being college sports oriented. And we do have some fans that are nearly as fanatical as Eagles fans. But since our fan base is not as large as the eagles, it gives us fewer fanatical fans.

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Josh Thomas had been with us since last year.

What are the chances that he spontaneously hit some huge development milestone mid-season this year when he had been here a full season and a half, IIRC?

And I don't think he replaced Norman, I believe he stepped in with Gamble's injury and Captain moving inside more often after that. Norman continued to start initially. And honestly, I saw no big change in Norman's play from the beginning of the year to his demotion. So what changed there? He was a great tackler, made great plays on the ball when he was in position, but the problem was he gave too much cushion as was rarely ever in good position.

As for Joe Adams, it's like I said... I just threw his name out there among others, in hindsight, he shouldn't have been included because he earned his demotion. I'm not a Joe Adams-guy, so to speak. I was excited when we drafted him, but that quickly dissipated early on after he started muffing punts. My bigger point was that Nakamura was doing the equivalent to what Adams was doing on defense and he wasn't deactivated.

Yes, everything on our end is done in hindsight because we don't see what is going on day-to-day at every practice. But, in a case like Nakamura's, Rivera could've suited up himself and played better than Nakamura was.

I think Rivera plays favorites, and often, it isn't justified. Deangelo IS the prime example there. The argument with Gettis on the sidelines during one of the games when he was inactive comes to mind as well. Naanee last year anyone?

As to your point about Chud being the problem offensively and with some of the personnel being misused... There's a reason Rivera is the HC. He oversees ALL OF THAT. Especially the general philosophy and approach on both sides of the ball. If what Chud was doing wasn't working, then he needed to step in and say so and change it. Instead, he threw Deangelo under the bus and rode with the read option until Hurney got fired and they went back to traditional runs against Chicago.

Rivera gets blame because he deserves blame. He told on himself numerous times in pressers that demonstrated how dysfunctional his staff was, as well as his own decision making.

No, he doesn't deserve all of the blame and I'm not blaming him for all of it. But, he should be held responsible for game-related management/decision making because he oversees all of it... Or at least he was supposed to. And when you are the head guy, as Rivera said himself, the buck stops with him.

We won a few games and now people forget all of the problems that got us in the hole we were in to begin with.

You can throw out all the justifications for why you want him gone and you will find people who agree with you. And you can find some situations where personnel-wise he made some mistakes but your context is to look for the negative and try to find issues even to the point of manufacturing them. For example, no one would say that Nakamura was the answer after the Atlanta game but to that point he was the best free safety we had against the run and he was likely the best of the rest in practice against the pass. I think everyone thought he was going to better than he was and it didn't turn out. You could say that everyone should have been ready to step in for him but it likely took time to give everyone else enough reps with the 1s and game experience in order to move everyone around. Add to that the fact that injuries caused shuffling lineups most of the second half.

I can't tell if you are like most of us and are disappointed in the season and need to argue and bitch about the team and this is the way you chose to do it. You are obviously unable to see any of the positives and only focus on the negatives. Like stages that people go through when faced with an emotional issue, perhaps you can get through this and move on. I am not happy with the first 10 games of the year but instead of all the problems I see all the things we actually did right. I look at 4 or 5 plays where the coaches made the right decisions and the players didn't execute as the difference between 7-9 and 10-6. I also see the 4 or 5 boneheaded coaching decisions that could have made the difference between 10-6 and 12-4. I see what could have been and what I expect to happen next year.

Why am I optimistic? Because while it hasn't been at anywhere close to his level, I have coached teams over the years and I know that when I screwed up I was always my hardest critic. And while I might make the same mistake again, it won't be frequent and I will make steps to prevent it at all costs. I agonized about how I screwed up in private. But like him, I wasn't going to discuss it in public. I firmly believe he is going to review everything and learn from his mistakes. It is not bad to make a mistake, it is bad to keep repeating it and not learn from the experience. I think he will and you think he won't. Difference is I am not on a mission to tell everyone we need to fire him. I am fine with whatever the Panthers do. After they have the most at stake and have insider info we don't.

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If we keep the same complete coaching staff from this year and we start the first game next year in the read option .... I will be so tempted to go on a killing spree.

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the whole board

Not the whole board hopefully.

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Not so much about Joe Adams, but his situation is a microcosm of Rivera's problems in personnel management...

It's really about benching Joe Adams for muffs, but leaving a guy like Nakamura out there to get torched and allow our defense to be a living, breathing, sieve. Or keeping him on the bench in favor of Armanti and his breakaway speed featuring his legendary 6th gear.

There seems to be little to no reasoning as to why or when he makes the moves he does regarding personnel and Adams was among those that found themselves in Rivera's doghouse repeatedly while others continued starting/playing who shouldn't have been.

Adams deserved his spot on the bench. Dont defend him. If you are saying Ron was inconsistent with benching players, i guess i agree with that.

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