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The case for firing Rivera and the case for keeping Rivera

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We were wasting timeouts against the Saints and against Oakland we botched the end of the first half by using a final timeout when we should have been spiking the ball thus limiting our playcalling options especially after the penalty that pushed us back.

I disagree. I don't think those TO against the Saints where necessarily wasted. I think they came at times when there was some confusion on the field. Remember the OL was pretty much a patch-work affair so it is only natural to expect some communications problems. Secondly, they only used two TO's in each half so they still had one remaining.

Against Oakland, they only took two TO's the entire game so again, I don't see how that taking a TO was wasted.

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... against Oakland we botched the end of the first half by using a final timeout...

Just wanted to point out that they only used 1 TO in the first half and they scored a TD two plays later.

Maybe you were thinking of another game?

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You bring up some good points and I don't wholeheartedly disagree with you.

However.

We were wasting timeouts against the Saints and against Oakland we botched the end of the first half by using a final timeout when we should have been spiking the ball thus limiting our playcalling options especially after the penalty that pushed us back.

Nobody remembers those things because we won those games. But those are the type of things that lose close games.

It didn't get much better. We just happened to win some games so people didn't notice.

agreed. we barely got away with wins that we essentially just got lucky with and we lost games that we had in the bag. again, players made mistakes but the coaching staff made bad calls that helped give those games away.

and performance of the players always falls back on the coaching staff. it's their job to put them in a position to win, and part of that is not giving games away or giving control to the other team. it's also putting together a plan that the players can win with or even excel in. it's also getting the right people in the right positions at the right time and ensuring that they can carry out the plan/directions you've given them.

team management. game management. it all falls on rivera. he improved in some areas, but my main concern is 1) his ability to continue growth and 2) having a low ceiling. it's quite possible that this team will never get much better than average with rivera calling the shots.

but hey...as long as the players are content with their coach and we don't have to rock the boat again, it's all worth it, right?

meh.....if rivera stays, it should be with a very short leash that he will be released from if he doesn't perform as expected...and those expectations are winning season next year or he's gone. not 8-8....winning. playoffs the year after that. that's the bare minimum.

i would also make sure that there's a coach on staff that has HC experience and if rivera's team goes through a losing spell, as in 3 in a row...he's gone and the assistant will take over. if the team is losing by the bye week....he's gone. losing can no longer be tolerated.

if the players think it's harsh or putting too much pressure on him...too bad. play better and know that it's not just your job on the line, it's the coaches.

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I disagree. I don't think those TO against the Saints where necessarily wasted. I think they came at times when there was some confusion on the field. Remember the OL was pretty much a patch-work affair so it is only natural to expect some communications problems. Secondly, they only used two TO's in each half so they still had one remaining.

Against Oakland, they only took two TO's the entire game so again, I don't see how that taking a TO was wasted.

The reason why I say they are wasted is because, for whatever reason, we are not getting to the line of scrimmage fast enough. I don't know if the issue is with Cam in the huddle or Chud in the booth, but when you don't get to the line of scrimmage until there is 8 seconds left on the play clock you don't have enough time to get everyone on the same page. Thus we end up using a timeout to avoid a delay of game, and those timeouts become precious at the end of each half. It is mismanagement somewhere and it never got fixed.

And I was wrong about the game I was referring to. it was the San Diego game I was thinking of. We had 30 seconds left at the end of the half when we completed a pass to Olsen at the 5 yard line. Instead of getting down there and spiking the ball we used our last timeout. If we keep that timeout we can run a QB draw or a running play instead of having to complete a pass in the endzone with the entire defense floating around in there. Or if you get sacked you can stop the clock

The next play there is a penalty pushing us back to the 15 yard line. Now if you still have that timeout you can run a play short of the goal line and try to run it in after the catch or get to a better position for a TD. Instead, again we have to throw the ball in the endzone with the entire defense camping out in there. At the end we settled for a field goal after three straight incompletions trying to force it in the endzone from 15 yards out. Again, IMO, that is game mismanagement.

But we won those games so it goes unnoticed.

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The reason why I say they are wasted is because, for whatever reason, we are not getting to the line of scrimmage fast enough. I don't know if the issue is with Cam in the huddle or Chud in the booth, but when you don't get to the line of scrimmage until there is 8 seconds left on the play clock you don't have enough time to get everyone on the same page. Thus we end up using a timeout to avoid a delay of game, and those timeouts become precious at the end of each half. It is mismanagement somewhere and it never got fixed.

And I was wrong about the game I was referring to. it was the San Diego game I was thinking of. We had 30 seconds left at the end of the half when we completed a pass to Olsen at the 5 yard line. Instead of getting down there and spiking the ball we used our last timeout. If we keep that timeout we can run a QB draw or a running play instead of having to complete a pass in the endzone with the entire defense floating around in there. Or if you get sacked you can stop the clock

The next play there is a penalty pushing us back to the 15 yard line. Now if you still have that timeout you can run a play short of the goal line and try to run it in after the catch or get to a better position for a TD. Instead, again we have to throw the ball in the endzone with the entire defense camping out in there. At the end we settled for a field goal after three straight incompletions trying to force it in the endzone from 15 yards out. Again, IMO, that is game mismanagement.

But we won those games so it goes unnoticed.

i remember talking to my family towards the end of the san diego game when they said the game was in the bag and we didn't need to watch anymore. i said, if anyone can blow a 3 TD lead or whatever in just a few minutes, it's the panthers. i have no confidence in that team to keep a lead of any kind. and the sad thing is, it's warranted.

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Personally, I would prefer to keep RR for another year. He's done a great job with the offense and from what we've seen in videos or on the field, he still has the locker room and respect of the players. The mere fact that they played hard for the final weeks of the season shows that they really respect him. I feel like firing Rivera would cause more problems. What we need is a better OC with head coaching experience. (NORV)

Only way I would want to keep Ron is if we fire or demote Chud and bring Norv Turner as the AHC/OC.

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agreed. we barely got away with wins that we essentially just got lucky with and we lost games that we had in the bag. again, players made mistakes but the coaching staff made bad calls that helped give those games away.

and performance of the players always falls back on the coaching staff. it's their job to put them in a position to win, and part of that is not giving games away or giving control to the other team. it's also putting together a plan that the players can win with or even excel in. it's also getting the right people in the right positions at the right time and ensuring that they can carry out the plan/directions you've given them.

team management. game management. it all falls on rivera. he improved in some areas, but my main concern is 1) his ability to continue growth and 2) having a low ceiling. it's quite possible that this team will never get much better than average with rivera calling the shots.

but hey...as long as the players are content with their coach and we don't have to rock the boat again, it's all worth it, right?

meh.....if rivera stays, it should be with a very short leash that he will be released from if he doesn't perform as expected...and those expectations are winning season next year or he's gone. not 8-8....winning. playoffs the year after that. that's the bare minimum.

i would also make sure that there's a coach on staff that has HC experience and if rivera's team goes through a losing spell, as in 3 in a row...he's gone and the assistant will take over. if the team is losing by the bye week....he's gone. losing can no longer be tolerated.

if the players think it's harsh or putting too much pressure on him...too bad. play better and know that it's not just your job on the line, it's the coaches.

If you have to put him on a short leash then he doesn't need to coach the Panthers. The reason is that he should be able to go into the season with full confidence. Putting him on a short leash with rock the boat with him and the team which could lead to being a disaster. If the new GM keeps him he really needs to keep him no matter what. But if he have his doubts and don't feel Rivera is the guy then he needs to let him go.

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Look at the W/L column this season and last season. Tell me that is okay.

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"...but I also think the Panthers will be one of the most sought after jobs by coaches should it come open."

Not so sure about that. Jerry Richardson has proven himself to be pretty frugal and won't pay a top coach's salary. Witness John Fox in his last season in Charlotte only making about $3M as one of the longest tenured coaches in the league after all his years with the Panthers.

The coach thing is wrong as others have pointed out. But so is the frugality besides the lockout year. After the CBA he paid and overpaid several veterans and didn't have to.

JR is many things but he isn't cheap

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Look at the W/L column this season and last season. Tell me that is okay.

seems like almost every other season for this franchise.

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If you have to put him on a short leash then he doesn't need to coach the Panthers. The reason is that he should be able to go into the season with full confidence. Putting him on a short leash with rock the boat with him and the team which could lead to being a disaster. If the new GM keeps him he really needs to keep him no matter what. But if he have his doubts and don't feel Rivera is the guy then he needs to let him go.

agreed. but that is the only way he should be kept, imo.

the confidence isn't there. his job is to win games with who he has. he hasn't done that enough for there to be any confidence in his ability to do that consistently.

if there are no viable options available, then you keep him under those understandings.

tbh, i would feel that way with any coach. you win or else. we want a guy that can produce multiple winning seasons in a row. if he can't produce a winning season in his first two years, you have to doubt his ability to pull it off consistently or at all. getting your team in position to win isn't enough. you have to get the win.

i don't want a coaching change, i think it's best for the team for them to move on. you're even moving forward or you're falling behind and following a losing season with another losing season isn't moving forward. you have to have standards other than "there's worse teams" or "we were better than last year".

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seems like almost every other season for this franchise.

when we didn't have a losing season multiple years in a row, you could say that. now we are perennial losers. we have a tradition of losing that too many people are content with.

going to the superbowl was a fluke.

i'm beginning to think that every winning season we've had was a fluke. we've had 4 out of 18 years. and we haven't had one in 4 years.

that's not a winning team. that's a losing team, and it's time the organization did something about it.

if they don't do anything, i can't blame anyone for bailing on a team that has been nothing but pathetic in their efforts to bring their fans a winning team.

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