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So wait, im confused (cap space related.)


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#31 Herbert The Love Bug

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 03:19 AM

Don't see why this thread got bashed. Most PantherTrain threads I get the bashing, but this one, I just don't see the reason.

#32 TheMaulClaw

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 03:55 AM

The majority of big NFL contracts have higher numbers in the final years than the initial years (backloaded). Some of this has historically been due to expectations of an increasing cap, and the ego of players and agents. The reason I mention ego is because all the stars want to have the biggest contract ever, blah, blah, blah, so GMs throw a big, non-guaranteed, salary into the later years to make it look like a bigger deal. Once those years approach, the players either renegotiate or are cut.

But some are more obvious than others. Stewart's salary was basically nothing this year (and next if I remember right), but he got the big signing bonus and has guaranteed salary in the middle years of the deal, making it hard to get out of.

Beason's, DWill's, Gamble's and Kalil's were all contracts in which the player was paid more than market value for their position and contribution. It is more glaring in Beason's case because of the injuries.

Once we signed DWill to that big deal, we never should have signed Stewart to a big deal as well. Beason, TD, and Anderson all got big contracts. Most teams might have one high paid LB, but to pay all 3 more than market value was a killer, even without the injuries. Most teams do not believe centers should get a huge salary, as it is often considered the least important o-line position, as evidenced by how few are drafted in the 1st round.


.

So long story short, our problems go beyond backloading. Way beyond.


I do agree as far as backloading isn't the singular problem with the team. But as I stated earlier we doubled up on backloaded contracts at redundant positions Williams and Stewart most glaringly. Now we can't escape without trying to artfully trim the fat off the roster. Which is a hit or miss proposition. I feel like it would be hard on a GM to walk in off the street and be able accurately evaluate the players on our own roster to decide what to trim. In essence we're going to put who gets cut in the hands of someone with limited familiarity of our players and that sort of scares me

#33 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:05 AM

I do agree as far as backloading isn't the singular problem with the team. But as I stated earlier we doubled up on backloaded contracts at redundant positions Williams and Stewart most glaringly. Now we can't escape without trying to artfully trim the fat off the roster. Which is a hit or miss proposition. I feel like it would be hard on a GM to walk in off the street and be able accurately evaluate the players on our own roster to decide what to trim. In essence we're going to put who gets cut in the hands of someone with limited familiarity of our players and that sort of scares me

The fact he isn't emotionally invested with the players could be a good thing.

But personally I believe that since Rivera got one more yr that Beane gets a year and I see him not making the cuts we need

#34 Marguide

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 10:31 AM

I do agree as far as backloading isn't the singular problem with the team. But as I stated earlier we doubled up on backloaded contracts at redundant positions Williams and Stewart most glaringly. Now we can't escape without trying to artfully trim the fat off the roster. Which is a hit or miss proposition. I feel like it would be hard on a GM to walk in off the street and be able accurately evaluate the players on our own roster to decide what to trim. In essence we're going to put who gets cut in the hands of someone with limited familiarity of our players and that sort of scares me


Just to clarify, DWill's contract really isn't backloaded, Stew's is. DWill's salary actually drops by $500,000 in 2013, before increasing by $1,000,000 in 2014.

I agree with CRA that having an "outsider" come in and make the tough decisions is actually a good thing. Hurney (and probably JR) overvalued our players, so a new guy should be more objective. We have to start trimming the fat now, or this problem will just get worse.

#35 TheMaulClaw

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:37 AM

Just to clarify, DWill's contract really isn't backloaded, Stew's is. DWill's salary actually drops by $500,000 in 2013, before increasing by $1,000,000 in 2014.

I agree with CRA that having an "outsider" come in and make the tough decisions is actually a good thing. Hurney (and probably JR) overvalued our players, so a new guy should be more objective. We have to start trimming the fat now, or this problem will just get worse.


This could be true. I'm just not sure how he's going to be able to accurately evaluate the players when he hasn't seen them in live action or knowing where they're at in their development. With veterans it doesn't make as much of a difference I suppose. I just don't want the new GM to start cutting some young players he doesn't know much about when they're developing well.

#36 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:53 AM

This could be true. I'm just not sure how he's going to be able to accurately evaluate the players when he hasn't seen them in live action or knowing where they're at in their development. With veterans it doesn't make as much of a difference I suppose. I just don't want the new GM to start cutting some young players he doesn't know much about when they're developing well.


But that is the thing...

A lot of what the new GM isn't evaluating talent playing on the field....but look at Fox era guys and what we are paying them (age and roster depth).

Our cap isn't a mess bc of Rivera era players. They cost peanuts. Those are the young guys.

#37 Guest_Tom Cat_*

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:01 PM

Simple answer to the op - its obama money

#38 Carolinablue27

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:04 PM

Don't see why this thread got bashed. Most PantherTrain threads I get the bashing, but this one, I just don't see the reason.


Every thread gets bashed here. You have to weed through all the "Clever" remarks before finding quality posts.

#39 carolina-chuck

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:18 PM

It's spread over over 5yrs duh.
You post too much without thinking

#40 TheMaulClaw

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:26 PM

But that is the thing...

A lot of what the new GM isn't evaluating talent playing on the field....but look at Fox era guys and what we are paying them (age and roster depth).

Our cap isn't a mess bc of Rivera era players. They cost peanuts. Those are the young guys.


Alright so....I don't think we're going to be able to cut all the vets we need to cut because I would assume their would be very hefty cap penalties if there is one big unilateral cut. So who do we keep and who do we let go?

Gamble, Beason, Gross, DWill, Stewart, or Kalil?

#41 TopCat

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:28 PM

Its all thanks to Obamacare

#42 TheMaulClaw

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:34 PM

The fact he isn't emotionally invested with the players could be a good thing.

But personally I believe that since Rivera got one more yr that Beane gets a year and I see him not making the cuts we need


BTW, it could be a great thing.....as long as we hire the right person. This is probably one of the most important FO hiring decisions in Panthers history. Right now as an organization we're in purgatory between being a respected franchise and a poor one. So that's why this scares me (even if it's the right decision). This next GM really does need to hold the key to success because if he doesn't Cam is going to walk.

#43 Marguide

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:35 PM

Alright so....I don't think we're going to be able to cut all the vets we need to cut because I would assume their would be very hefty cap penalties if there is one big unilateral cut. So who do we keep and who do we let go?

Gamble, Beason, Gross, DWill, Stewart, or Kalil?


Strictly from a cap standpoint (not considering on field contribution), the easiest guys to cut with the biggest impact would be Gamble and Gross. DWill would save us some money if he were a June 1st cut, and I belive Beason's impact would be neutral if he were a June 1st cut.

Stewart appears uncuttable because he has tons of guaranteed money left on his contract. I'm not sure on Kalil as the site I use does not have data on players that are on IR.

As to who we keep and who we let go, it may depend on our draft strategy.

#44 TheMaulClaw

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:44 PM

Strictly from a cap standpoint (not considering on field contribution), the easiest guys to cut with the biggest impact would be Gamble and Gross. DWill would save us some money if he were a June 1st cut, and I belive Beason's impact would be neutral if he were a June 1st cut.

Stewart appears uncuttable because he has tons of guaranteed money left on his contract. I'm not sure on Kalil as the site I use does not have data on players that are on IR.

As to who we keep and who we let go, it may depend on our draft strategy.


I guess that means we might need to draft another LB and RB maybe in the mid rounds. Because even though Thomas Davis had a full year with have 3 prior ACLs.....there will be a concern for the rest of his career. With Beason presumed gone we'll need more depth because our LBs never make it intact a full season together. Similar concern with the RBs considering each one of them miss a few game over the course of the season. So maybe draft OT,WR, CB, LB, S, RB, K.

#45 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:54 PM

Alright so....I don't think we're going to be able to cut all the vets we need to cut because I would assume their would be very hefty cap penalties if there is one big unilateral cut. So who do we keep and who do we let go?

Gamble, Beason, Gross, DWill, Stewart, or Kalil?


He will have to start the cuts....can't do it all in a year.

Gamble and Williams seem like an easy calls to cut. Beason is probably one they will look at carefully. He might prefer a cut than a restructure leaving us little choice.

Kalil is safe IMO.


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