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darin gantt "Panthers keep finding scapegoats, bigger problem remains"


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#121 panthers55

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:00 AM

You have to wonder with all these lower level firings why the guy that hired them to begin with isnt getting canned as well.

Thought about it last night - JR is holding on to Rivera for one reason - to save himself money. Its the only thing that makes any sort of sense. Pitiful way to run a sports team and completely unfair to the fans of that team.

Disagree totally. Rivera is still here because he has shown in the last 5 games that his team has the ability to contend and he can game plan and get his players ready to play. He was told to improve despite the injuries and schedule at the end and he did. He beat 2 division rivals one of which Richardson supposedly dislikes and did what he was asked to do. Was it too late for this year? Yes, but certainly enough in my mind to give him another year.

#122 Proudiddy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:02 AM

He thought 2012 was going to be good, everyone did. Why make wholesale changes on a team going to the playoffs. Now his back is against the wall and he is looking to do everything he can to turn things around. So he has reevaluated things and is making changes. I think it is a good idea........

I know we won't agree on this because we've already discussed our positions on Coach Rivera. But, I am obviously looking at it from the other end of the spectrum.

I look at it as though you guys are saying, he knows he has one year to prove himself and everything is on the line now, so he has to assemble the best staff possible. So, does that mean he half-heartedly assembled the one he just fired as sacrificial lambs?

The other part of that deal is, if it didn't work out with this group of positional coaches and they were the problem after 2 years together, then how is he going to hire a new group of positional coaches and it all magically comes together in 1 year? Just as with players, the coaching staff has to mesh together and get some chemistry going... I think it's really dumb to start over with positional coaches when supposedly everything is on the line this year.

I mean, if we kept Rivera for the sake of giving him another year because everything looked really good closing out the year, why don't the positional coaches get the same considerations? Weren't they a part of all of that amazing awesomeness? LOL.

#123 panthers55

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:03 AM

I'm aware of their duties.

My point was, how much of our problems were technique versus gameday decisions? Position coaches don't make those.


I think many of our problems where not having backups ready to play when starters went down and guys not executing when they needed to. I think gameday decisions by coordinators and Rivera were an issue at times but not the main reason we lost so many early.

#124 panthers55

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:18 AM

I know we won't agree on this because we've already discussed our positions on Coach Rivera. But, I am obviously looking at it from the other end of the spectrum.

I look at it as though you guys are saying, he knows he has one year to prove himself and everything is on the line now, so he has to assemble the best staff possible. So, does that mean he half-heartedly assembled the one he just fired as sacrificial lambs?

The other part of that deal is, if it didn't work out with this group of positional coaches and they were the problem after 2 years together, then how is he going to hire a new group of positional coaches and it all magically comes together in 1 year? Just as with players, the coaching staff has to mesh together and get some chemistry going... I think it's really dumb to start over with positional coaches when supposedly everything is on the line this year.

I mean, if we kept Rivera for the sake of giving him another year because everything looked really good closing out the year, why don't the positional coaches get the same considerations? Weren't they a part of all of that amazing awesomeness? LOL.


You are right we won't agree because I have already told you why I think we are making changes now and why your logic doesn't follow.

After 2011 I think everyone was excited about where we were and felt we were going to the playoffs. When you are doing well and I think going from 2-12 to 6-10 in one year is a lot of progress, you don't make wholesale changes thinking things are going well. When you realize that there were issues and you fell short of your goal by a lot, you have to reexamine your assumptions and decide where you were wrong. Rivera did that and decided to make some changes.

Why didn't all the positional coaches get a pass because we closed things out well? Assuming you agree with the special teams canning early in the year, we let some guys go in areas where Rivera wants improvement. Again tell me where you think these guys were doing a good job and were canned unfairly. To be a sacrificial lamb you have to be sacrificed needlessly when there was no reason to do so.
How can anyone outside of the organization with no working knowledge of what went on from day to day decide which position coach was doing bad or good. They look at the games and infer things which is not always accurate but it is what we have. So tell me what things about the runningbacks or wide receivers makes you believe the positional guys did a great job. I can see where the linebackers position could be an issue but who says personalities didn't factor in as well or he has someone in mind he likes better who is suddenly available given all the firings of head coaches.

Just because you finish well doesn't mean everything went well. You still can have issues which need correction.

#125 Proudiddy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:41 AM

You are right we won't agree because I have already told you why I think we are making changes now and why your logic doesn't follow.

After 2011 I think everyone was excited about where we were and felt we were going to the playoffs. When you are doing well and I think going from 2-12 to 6-10 in one year is a lot of progress, you don't make wholesale changes thinking things are going well. When you realize that there were issues and you fell short of your goal by a lot, you have to reexamine your assumptions and decide where you were wrong. Rivera did that and decided to make some changes.

Why didn't all the positional coaches get a pass because we closed things out well? Assuming you agree with the special teams canning early in the year, we let some guys go in areas where Rivera wants improvement. Again tell me where you think these guys were doing a good job and were canned unfairly. To be a sacrificial lamb you have to be sacrificed needlessly when there was no reason to do so.
How can anyone outside of the organization with no working knowledge of what went on from day to day decide which position coach was doing bad or good. They look at the games and infer things which is not always accurate but it is what we have. So tell me what things about the runningbacks or wide receivers makes you believe the positional guys did a great job. I can see where the linebackers position could be an issue but who says personalities didn't factor in as well or he has someone in mind he likes better who is suddenly available given all the firings of head coaches.

Just because you finish well doesn't mean everything went well. You still can have issues which need correction.

But, that brings us back to my point... How can you judge what a positional coach is doing or how well players are doing in their respective positional duties when your head coach and coordinators are dysfunctional?

The running backs can't be judged on their performance fairly, because they were being asked to do things that weren't working (heavy read option, very few traditional runs to start the year). Wide receivers numbers were down because we couldn't stay on the field, in part because of the calls being made by Chud. I don't remember saying to myself at the beginning of the year, "Man, if ____ wouldn't have jacked up that route or dropped that pass." Nor do I remember saying, "If DeAngelo would have cut back... If Stew would have blah blah blah." Nor do I remember those being the complaints of anyone else on this board.

You're right. There were problems that needed to be addressed. And it had nothing to do with positional execution. We weren't struggling because of those things, we were struggling because Rivera, Chud, and to some degree McD (at the beginning of the year) were sabotaging the season with poor play calls and strategic decisions.

Our problems weren't dropped passes or missed assignments. Rivera himself admitted the offensive philosophy to start the year was a failure because they tried to "think ahead of the curve." He admitted that was the problem. Yet, here we are, going into another season with him when he allowed that to fester for at least 6 games before something was done differently.

That's why my problem is with Rivera. If you don't want to call the last few wins meaningless, then it means everyone was playing as if we were 0-0. By that logic, it means this team was just as capable of playing that way to start the year. So, in turn, it falls at Rivera's feet. If this team was capable of that play in meaningful games all year, he dropped 5 or 6 before he made adjustments that led to the end-of-season-wins. That is inexcusable.

But, we can continue to act as though route running, catching, and ball security were the major factors in our losses and poor overall outcome.

Again, I'm not intending to get in a pissing match as I respect your posts P55... Just my opinion.

#126 panthers55

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:26 AM

But, that brings us back to my point... How can you judge what a positional coach is doing or how well players are doing in their respective positional duties when your head coach and coordinators are dysfunctional?

The running backs can't be judged on their performance fairly, because they were being asked to do things that weren't working (heavy read option, very few traditional runs to start the year). Wide receivers numbers were down because we couldn't stay on the field, in part because of the calls being made by Chud. I don't remember saying to myself at the beginning of the year, "Man, if ____ wouldn't have jacked up that route or dropped that pass." Nor do I remember saying, "If DeAngelo would have cut back... If Stew would have blah blah blah." Nor do I remember those being the complaints of anyone else on this board.

You're right. There were problems that needed to be addressed. And it had nothing to do with positional execution. We weren't struggling because of those things, we were struggling because Rivera, Chud, and to some degree McD (at the beginning of the year) were sabotaging the season with poor play calls and strategic decisions.

Our problems weren't dropped passes or missed assignments. Rivera himself admitted the offensive philosophy to start the year was a failure because they tried to "think ahead of the curve." He admitted that was the problem. Yet, here we are, going into another season with him when he allowed that to fester for at least 6 games before something was done differently.

That's why my problem is with Rivera. If you don't want to call the last few wins meaningless, then it means everyone was playing as if we were 0-0. By that logic, it means this team was just as capable of playing that way to start the year. So, in turn, it falls at Rivera's feet. If this team was capable of that play in meaningful games all year, he dropped 5 or 6 before he made adjustments that led to the end-of-season-wins. That is inexcusable.

But, we can continue to act as though route running, catching, and ball security were the major factors in our losses and poor overall outcome.

Again, I'm not intending to get in a pissing match as I respect your posts P55... Just my opinion.


The first sentence says it all. You think Rivera and the coordinators are dysfunctional and I don't. I think they are learning and figuring things out. I expect them to grow from this year and be better next. You obviously feel they are broken and won't improve.

You also seem to think you have some knowledge about the inner workings of the organization or how everyone did their job. Where did you get that from? Have you ever even talked to any of the positional coaches and any of the organizational people at all. So all your understanding about positional responses and who did a good or job job is speculation at best.

Rivera admitted there were offensive issues. That has nothing to do with why the positional guys were fired. Otherwise it would have been Chud.

No one said that the wide receivers or runningbacks were the main problems but they are areas where the coach wants better performance positionally. And he is in the best position to judge that. Frankly I would think people would be happy he is trying to right the ship instead of taking pot shots.

I just reject the idea of sacrificial lambs. It didn't apply to Hurney and it doesn't apply now.

#127 CatMan72

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:35 AM

I agree with the overall theme of the article, but it's unfair to assume Rivera is looking for scapegoats to save his own hide.

In fact, when asked about whether or not he thought he would be fired he said he wasn't worried about himself, he was worried about his staff.

He's a first-time coach in his 3rd year and he's making adjustments to his staff... maybe he came to the conclusion that these guys weren't particularly good coaches?

His firing of Brian Murphy was clearly the right move given the improvement of our special teams.

Is it me, or does it sound like Darin has an axe to grind?

#128 Proudiddy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:54 AM

The first sentence says it all. You think Rivera and the coordinators are dysfunctional and I don't. I think they are learning and figuring things out. I expect them to grow from this year and be better next. You obviously feel they are broken and won't improve.

You also seem to think you have some knowledge about the inner workings of the organization or how everyone did their job. Where did you get that from? Have you ever even talked to any of the positional coaches and any of the organizational people at all. So all your understanding about positional responses and who did a good or job job is speculation at best.

Rivera admitted there were offensive issues. That has nothing to do with why the positional guys were fired. Otherwise it would have been Chud.

No one said that the wide receivers or runningbacks were the main problems but they are areas where the coach wants better performance positionally. And he is in the best position to judge that. Frankly I would think people would be happy he is trying to right the ship instead of taking pot shots.

I just reject the idea of sacrificial lambs. It didn't apply to Hurney and it doesn't apply now.

I discussed the running backs and WRs because you asked me about them specifically. So, I answered you.

And as I said, and you just reiterated, Rivera admitted there were offensive problems and specifically implicated Chud as the culprit. He didn't trash him, he just said that he was trying to stay ahead of the curve and it backfired on them. Chud was not fired. So again, he points out Chud was having issues, but Chud is safe. Then we fire multiple positional coaches who may or may not have been a problem?

How can you argue that Rivera and Chud were NOT dysfunctional based off of how the season started?

Do you have connections within the coaching staff? Otherwise, you are also inferring what you want to about the situation based off of your own perspective.

I feel my position is firmly supported by the evidence we have in forms of statements from the players and coaches throughout the season. DeAngelo and Stew both arguably had one of their worst, if not THE worst season, they have ever had performance wise. They didn't fall off the age cliff... DeAngelo showed what he could do in the home stretch. That isn't explained away by positional coaching. It's indicative of problems with the philosophy to start the season. DeAngelo supported this idea with numerous statements throughout.

Additionally, we have the quote from CJ when Hurney was fired that said "I didn't know GMs coached." But, we win 3 or 4 games at the end of the year and everything is all gravy again.

We also have the few statements from Cam including one, IIRC, where he said, "I don't call the plays."

Then we have Rivera himself saying things such as, "We wanted to make them systematically beat us." He also implied that he had no say in how DBs were lining up. Those type of things.

So that doesn't suggest dysfunction? LOL. I don't know what does.

I didn't just go on some emotional tangent and delve deep into some Rivera hate fest. I was driving the Rivera fanwagon when we hired him. Go look up my posts from early on in his tenure. I believed in him. But, the things he has said and the things he has done have given me reason not to. I didn't just assume all of this and decide he wasn't the guy, there is proof in the things people from within the organization have said. So, you can keep discounting my for being an "outsider," but no matter what one may think, WE ARE ALL OUTSIDERS on this board.

So, unless you have evidence supporting your assumptions of what's going on in Rivera's brain, then I'll ride it out with the evidence that I have heard and saw to support my opinion.

#129 Mr. Scot

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:07 AM

I agree with the overall theme of the article, but it's unfair to assume Rivera is looking for scapegoats to save his own hide.

In fact, when asked about whether or not he thought he would be fired he said he wasn't worried about himself, he was worried about his staff.

He's a first-time coach in his 3rd year and he's making adjustments to his staff... maybe he came to the conclusion that these guys weren't particularly good coaches?

His firing of Brian Murphy was clearly the right move given the improvement of our special teams.

Is it me, or does it sound like Darin has an axe to grind?


I go back to Steve Wilks.

Wilks was the guy Rivera really wanted for his DC when he first got here, but as I recall, the Chargers wouldn't give permission or something. Bottom line, we couldn't get him. Rivera kept Ron Meeks, but it wasn't who he really wanted.

A year later, Wilks' contract is up. Ron Meeks is let go and Rivera brings in the guy he really wanted to begin with.

There are guys with prior Rivera connections at all three coaching spots who are part of staffs currently in flux due to their head coach being fired. Won't surprise me if one or all of them wind up here. In the case of the receivers, you could also just see in-house assistant Ricky Proehl promoted (pretty sure fans would love that if it happened).

So like I said in another thread, before I make a judgment on the firing of these coaches, I wanna see who their replacements wind up being. If it turns out we get better guys, then I'm fine with that.

#130 panthers55

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:31 AM

I discussed the running backs and WRs because you asked me about them specifically. So, I answered you.

And as I said, and you just reiterated, Rivera admitted there were offensive problems and specifically implicated Chud as the culprit. He didn't trash him, he just said that he was trying to stay ahead of the curve and it backfired on them. Chud was not fired. So again, he points out Chud was having issues, but Chud is safe. Then we fire multiple positional coaches who may or may not have been a problem?

How can you argue that Rivera and Chud were NOT dysfunctional based off of how the season started?

Do you have connections within the coaching staff? Otherwise, you are also inferring what you want to about the situation based off of your own perspective.

I feel my position is firmly supported by the evidence we have in forms of statements from the players and coaches throughout the season. DeAngelo and Stew both arguably had one of their worst, if not THE worst season, they have ever had performance wise. They didn't fall off the age cliff... DeAngelo showed what he could do in the home stretch. That isn't explained away by positional coaching. It's indicative of problems with the philosophy to start the season. DeAngelo supported this idea with numerous statements throughout.

Additionally, we have the quote from CJ when Hurney was fired that said "I didn't know GMs coached." But, we win 3 or 4 games at the end of the year and everything is all gravy again.

We also have the few statements from Cam including one, IIRC, where he said, "I don't call the plays."

Then we have Rivera himself saying things such as, "We wanted to make them systematically beat us." He also implied that he had no say in how DBs were lining up. Those type of things.

So that doesn't suggest dysfunction? LOL. I don't know what does.

I didn't just go on some emotional tangent and delve deep into some Rivera hate fest. I was driving the Rivera fanwagon when we hired him. Go look up my posts from early on in his tenure. I believed in him. But, the things he has said and the things he has done have given me reason not to. I didn't just assume all of this and decide he wasn't the guy, there is proof in the things people from within the organization have said. So, you can keep discounting my for being an "outsider," but no matter what one may think, WE ARE ALL OUTSIDERS on this board.

So, unless you have evidence supporting your assumptions of what's going on in Rivera's brain, then I'll ride it out with the evidence that I have heard and saw to support my opinion.


You obviously have an axe to grind as well. You wanted Rivera gone and now blame him for everything happening. Fine.

But going back and forth seems useless. You and I obviously are working on different assumptions about the team and coaches. Nothing I say will change your mind so I won't waste my time.

#131 MadHatter

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:44 AM

I think one aspect that no one is mentioning about these firings is....How did the overall coaching staff mesh this year? Were there personality issues? Were there philosophical differences in styles? etc

Many of these changes could be attributed to improving that overall personality and functionality of the staff.

just a thought

#132 CRA

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:46 AM

How can you argue that Rivera and Chud were NOT dysfunctional based off of how the season started?

Do you have connections within the coaching staff? Otherwise, you are also inferring what you want to about the situation based off of your own perspective.

I feel my position is firmly supported by the evidence we have in forms of statements from the players and coaches throughout the season. DeAngelo and Stew both arguably had one of their worst, if not THE worst season, they have ever had performance wise. They didn't fall off the age cliff... DeAngelo showed what he could do in the home stretch. That isn't explained away by positional coaching. It's indicative of problems with the philosophy to start the season. DeAngelo supported this idea with numerous statements throughout.

Additionally, we have the quote from CJ when Hurney was fired that said "I didn't know GMs coached." But, we win 3 or 4 games at the end of the year and everything is all gravy again.

We also have the few statements from Cam including one, IIRC, where he said, "I don't call the plays."

Then we have Rivera himself saying things such as, "We wanted to make them systematically beat us." He also implied that he had no say in how DBs were lining up. Those type of things.

So that doesn't suggest dysfunction? LOL. I don't know what does.

I didn't just go on some emotional tangent and delve deep into some Rivera hate fest. I was driving the Rivera fanwagon when we hired him. Go look up my posts from early on in his tenure. I believed in him. But, the things he has said and the things he has done have given me reason not to. I didn't just assume all of this and decide he wasn't the guy, there is proof in the things people from within the organization have said. So, you can keep discounting my for being an "outsider," but no matter what one may think, WE ARE ALL OUTSIDERS on this board.

So, unless you have evidence supporting your assumptions of what's going on in Rivera's brain, then I'll ride it out with the evidence that I have heard and saw to support my opinion.


OL couldn't create holes....and Double Trouble where off to their standard slow start (one that dates back to Fox era). I didn't think Chud did a great job but G play was a disaster (negatively impacted us all year but was horrific early).

I don't recall Rivera claiming he had no say in how the DBs played....he constantly said they didn't often play the coverage the way he wanted.

a lot of Rivera's "worst" calls weren't bad calls....he just didn't have the talent early to execute it on defense. Sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't deal.

OL play IMO was the biggest reason we failed to meet expectations, then Chud in general. I think we still could of won w/ Chud's playcalling w/ better OL play

#133 CRA

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:47 AM

I go back to Steve Wilks.

Wilks was the guy Rivera really wanted for his DC when he first got here, but as I recall, the Chargers wouldn't give permission or something. Bottom line, we couldn't get him. Rivera kept Ron Meeks, but it wasn't who he really wanted.

A year later, Wilks' contract is up. Ron Meeks is let go and Rivera brings in the guy he really wanted to begin with.

There are guys with prior Rivera connections at all three coaching spots who are part of staffs currently in flux due to their head coach being fired. Won't surprise me if one or all of them wind up here. In the case of the receivers, you could also just see in-house assistant Ricky Proehl promoted (pretty sure fans would love that if it happened).

So like I said in another thread, before I make a judgment on the firing of these coaches, I wanna see who their replacements wind up being. If it turns out we get better guys, then I'm fine with that.


THIS.

Scapegoat crowd has an agenda IMO. Rivera simply could be going to get guys he wanted vs. keeping guys he settled for.

#134 carolinarolls

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:54 AM

I'm gonna start referring to Gantt rants as "Grantts" B)

Remember when people used to accuse him of being an ass kisser to the team?


he was an ass kisser

apparently some shuffling of priviliges has taken place and Gantt got snubbed. good for him to take someone, anyone to the carpet.

#135 CRA

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:14 PM

he was an ass kisser

apparently some shuffling of priviliges has taken place and Gantt got snubbed. good for him to take someone, anyone to the carpet.


meh, Gantt just clearly took a seat on the Rivera should go bandwagon awhile back.....that opinion is all over his Panther reporting.


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