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I Have Less Faith In Rivera After Today


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#121 fieryprophet

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 06:37 PM

That's 2 different things though. We all know Dalton isn't better than Cam. I can come up with 2 questionable TOUGH decisions the brothers made that has benefited their team. The firing of Cam, their OC and the switch from Smith to Colin


Biscotti told John to fire Cameron or else. People forget that Kaep came in for an injured Smith, which made Jim's decision for him. He used the lame "hot hand" line of reasoning, hardly sounds like a coach willing to make a change without an excuse to prop it up. Once Kaep played well there was no pressure to do otherwise. But I'll tell you what that move DID do; it demonstrated that Harbaugh is perfectly willing to talk up a player, call him elite, then try to dump him for Peyton, then go back to him like nothing ever happened, then bench him when he's playing well just because of injury. And we're supposed to applaud that unwillingness to be a man and say the truth, that your QB isn't very good and you will look into alternatives?

There's a lot of things Rivera can be called, but a hypocrite or a liar is not one of them.

#122 TANTRIC-NINJA

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 06:40 PM

I dont know, will the culture ever change? It seems like it has been this way since the beginning of time.

"Great, 7-9 but I see improvement and we had a lot of injuries but we have something to build on... Next year PLAYOFFS for sure!" (Insert 20XX season "RESET HOPE" button here)

Sigh...


It gets old..to me i think why I dont understand the Rivera hate is that all the things that have happened last two seasons is just another day in Pantherland.. Weve seen this before.. But not an attacking defense since Capers. I see unique elements I like that i do not want to regress back to..

#123 ThunderKatt

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 06:47 PM

If we don't have a successful season this year I hope Jr has the balls to show Rivera the egress and end this misery us the fans have been going.

#124 Fan01

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 06:55 PM

Fans don't have a good conception of history or that you can't judge a player or coach based on one single variable.

Dan Marion doesn't suck as a QB because he didn't win a Superbowl.
George Seifret wasn't a great coach because he won a Superbowl (with Walsh's players and system)
Bill Belichick wasn't a horrible coach because he didn't win as the Brown's head coach.

Those are not excuses. You have to look at a player or coach over a lot period of time and critique them over numerous things they do or don't do. Sometimes the result is from a great decision and sometimes really bad things happen from a great decision. A coach calls the perfect play but the receiver runs the wrong route. The coach makes a horrible call but the receiver makes a great catch in triple coverage.

Stop making assumptions and blanket statements. Start looking at things in context and accounting for the variables that affect what you're trying to judge.

#125 beastson

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:00 PM

Biscotti told John to fire Cameron or else. People forget that Kaep came in for an injured Smith, which made Jim's decision for him. He used the lame "hot hand" line of reasoning, hardly sounds like a coach willing to make a change without an excuse to prop it up. Once Kaep played well there was no pressure to do otherwise. But I'll tell you what that move DID do; it demonstrated that Harbaugh is perfectly willing to talk up a player, call him elite, then try to dump him for Peyton, then go back to him like nothing ever happened, then bench him when he's playing well just because of injury. And we're supposed to applaud that unwillingness to be a man and say the truth, that your QB isn't very good and you will look into alternatives?

There's a lot of things Rivera can be called, but a hypocrite or a liar is not one of them.


They drafted Colin, it was eventually going to be the plan. Alex wasn't going to win a championship in their mind. Alex could have went back to being the starter, they opted otherwise. What if Colin didn't work out and they lost games, they would have said he should kept Alex in.

And John fired Cam. They had an argument. I am in Baltimore, everybody wanted him gone. The timing of it is what caused confusion

#126 LinvilleGorge

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:54 PM

Fans don't have a good conception of history or that you can't judge a player or coach based on one single variable.

Dan Marion doesn't suck as a QB because he didn't win a Superbowl.
George Seifret wasn't a great coach because he won a Superbowl (with Walsh's players and system)
Bill Belichick wasn't a horrible coach because he didn't win as the Brown's head coach.

Those are not excuses. You have to look at a player or coach over a lot period of time and critique them over numerous things they do or don't do. Sometimes the result is from a great decision and sometimes really bad things happen from a great decision. A coach calls the perfect play but the receiver runs the wrong route. The coach makes a horrible call but the receiver makes a great catch in triple coverage.

Stop making assumptions and blanket statements. Start looking at things in context and accounting for the variables that affect what you're trying to judge.


Okay, you want to look at things in context, how about 3 wins when still in playoff contention? That's right, 10 of Rivera's wins have come after we were already out of the playoff race. Lots of meaningless late season wins in the past two years. How about Rivera's abysmal record in games decided by one score or less? I'm too lazy to look it up right now and don't know it off the top of my head, but feel free to do so if you'd like.

#127 Gabeking

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 08:25 PM

Okay, you want to look at things in context, how about 3 wins when still in playoff contention? That's right, 10 of Rivera's wins have come after we were already out of the playoff race. Lots of meaningless late season wins in the past two years. How about Rivera's abysmal record in games decided by one score or less? I'm too lazy to look it up right now and don't know it off the top of my head, but feel free to do so if you'd like.


Here we go with the close record BS... Look at chuck noll and bill wash's first few seasons in the league and their records in close games, were they amazing? (Disclaimer: not saying Rivera will be a Walsh or a noll, just saying that sort of argument is mostly invalid)

#128 CPF4LIFE

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 08:35 PM

STOP fuging DEFENDING RIVERA!!

#129 KendrickPanther

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 08:46 PM

Losing and not making the playoffs gets old everywhere. In 2005 I watched the Panthers kick tail in the Georgia Dome and all the Atlanta Fans were emo as fug about losing for 40 years. Telling me how they wish they won as often as the Panthers. San Francisco has two winning seasons since 2003, we have 3. Funny how you can make the numbers say whatever the hell you want by picking the cutoff dates.

ATL is 7-11 in the playoffs all time. We are 6-4. ATL has a 6 winning seasons in the last 9 years and they still have an all time history of losing by a wide margin.

#130 rayzor

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 09:02 PM

It gets old..to me i think why I dont understand the Rivera hate is that all the things that have happened last two seasons is just another day in Pantherland.. Weve seen this before.. But not an attacking defense since Capers. I see unique elements I like that i do not want to regress back to..

for me it's not rivera hate.

i just think he's in over his head. i think he's a great DC...one of the best there is. that doesn't make him a good game manager. i'm sure his players love him, but that doesn't mean he can get the best out of them.

i have yet to see him be able to do it. i have yet to see him succeed and just because there's a few winning coaches who had losing seasons starting out of the gate who turned things around doesn't mean that rivera can because the truth of the matter is that most coaches fail. most coaches who come out of the gate losing continue to do so. i have no reason to believe that rivera is more like those who turn things around than those who wash out.

aside from a few games at the end of his second season, i haven't seen a HC that can win games.

it's up to him to prove he can get this team winning and his window of opportunity is rapidly closing. no one anyone can say can make me believe that he can turn it around. the only thing that can do it is him doing it.

#131 Fan01

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 09:21 PM

Okay, you want to look at things in context, how about 3 wins when still in playoff contention? That's right, 10 of Rivera's wins have come after we were already out of the playoff race. Lots of meaningless late season wins in the past two years. How about Rivera's abysmal record in games decided by one score or less? I'm too lazy to look it up right now and don't know it off the top of my head, but feel free to do so if you'd like.



That's exactly what I'm talking about. You've bought up a few points to indicate why Rivera is a bad coach but you don't provide any context. For instance, his losing record in games decided by one score or less. Context would be breaking each of those games down and finding the reasons why we lost and assigning the blame. Then look at the why to see if it's something that can be fixed. Was actions taken to fix that specific problem?

Take the Atlanta game for example. We didn't lose that game to bad coaching. We lost it because Cam fumbled in the last minute and Nakamura was out of position and gave up a huge play. You could argue Rivera put Nakamura there and I would agree. So, Rivera had to decide if Nakamura not making that play was something that could be fixed. He thought it was and gave him another chance. Once he found that to be a mistake Nakamura was benched.

And if you think Rivera should have benched him right away that's hindsight and the same thing as saying he should have benched Cam for fumbling at the worst possible time. Of course you and everyone else think that's not the same thing but it is. The only difference is that it's very easy to see Cam's ability and say he should not be benched. It's much harder with Nakamura because he's not a star and we're not the coach seeing him day in and day out and also because we don't see practice and now if he was the best option despite his less than stellar play.

That's why most fans are out of their gourd. They decide if a player of coach is good or bad based on singular things like if we won or not. They blame the QB for throwing an INT even though they have no idea what the play was, if the player ran the right route, if the QB was throwing to a spot, etc. CONTEXT.

At some point it comes down to results and Rivera has not provided winning results but when you look at the whole picture you see why knowledgeable football people are saying Carolina has a lot of talent and are a much better team than there record indicates. If Rivera has learned from his mistakes and we correct even half of the mistakes to lose those games we're an easy playoff team. And with a few more pieces a Superbowl team.

#132 beastson

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 11:36 PM

Losing and not making the playoffs gets old everywhere. In 2005 I watched the Panthers kick tail in the Georgia Dome and all the Atlanta Fans were emo as fug about losing for 40 years. Telling me how they wish they won as often as the Panthers. San Francisco has two winning seasons since 2003, we have 3. Funny how you can make the numbers say whatever the hell you want by picking the cutoff dates.

ATL is 7-11 in the playoffs all time. We are 6-4. ATL has a 6 winning seasons in the last 9 years and they still have an all time history of losing by a wide margin.


Well yea that's what we need to get back to

But when you have a former news reporter as GM and ownership like Zod just mentioned not MONITORING WTF is going on like giving Jake a contract after that abysmal playoff game you get what we're going through now

#133 LinvilleGorge

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 11:52 PM

At some point it comes down to results and Rivera has not provided winning results but when you look at the whole picture you see why knowledgeable football people are saying Carolina has a lot of talent and are a much better team than there record indicates


Wait... I thought you were arguing for Rivera? You pretty much summed up what I've been saying all along. We're better on paper than we are on the field and a lot of it has come down to poor late game coaching and poor clock management.

#134 beastson

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 04:25 PM

Biscotti told John to fire Cameron or else. People forget that Kaep came in for an injured Smith, which made Jim's decision for him. He used the lame "hot hand" line of reasoning, hardly sounds like a coach willing to make a change without an excuse to prop it up. Once Kaep played well there was no pressure to do otherwise. But I'll tell you what that move DID do; it demonstrated that Harbaugh is perfectly willing to talk up a player, call him elite, then try to dump him for Peyton, then go back to him like nothing ever happened, then bench him when he's playing well just because of injury. And we're supposed to applaud that unwillingness to be a man and say the truth, that your QB isn't very good and you will look into alternatives?

There's a lot of things Rivera can be called, but a hypocrite or a liar is not one of them.



Ravens general manager Ozzie Newsome says the decision to fire offensive coordinator Cam Cameron in December was orchestrated solely by coach John Harbaugh.


http://www.charlotte...n-harbaugh.html

#135 MadHatter

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:02 PM

I swear....thus board has become the biggest joke of a team message board in the NFL. The constant bitching, moaning, criticism has gotten out if hand.

Even during the 1-15 season, it was not like this. There was intelligent debate and conversation. However, the last several seasons we have seen an infestation of pre pubescent idiots whose football acumen came from playing Madden.

We used to make fun if other team's boards who acted like this one is.

We are an embarrassment and this place has lost its fuging mind.


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