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WE (K)NEED 1st ROUND TALENT ON OUR O LINE. period


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#76 CPF4LIFE

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:32 PM

Warmack isn't talented enough to be picked at 14. He's not ten spots better than DeCastro was. If guard were really an impact position, a guy as good as DeCastro would have gone earlier. Teams know that they can find starters later, whether by drafting college guards or grabbing tackles and converting them. It just isn't a good place to spend those resources.



lol

#77 panthers55

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:33 PM

So based on our history u suggest that we hand cuff ourselves and select another player or position based on past experiences and "value". What exactly is draft value and why does it matter that much to where it prevents a team from building itself by selecting quality players?

We aren't picking in the top 10 this year. Just an example...Warmack is a dominant SEC, monster, power guard. A mauler. Also a collegiate champion. We have issues with our line and protection. So because he's a guard this disqualifies him from being selected at 14??


Don't agree with your black and white concrete thinking. I think we use our first on a skill position and draft or pick up guards later in the draft or in free agency on a 1 year deal. Gettleman in his conference call today said you don't have to unload the bank or overspend for good players. They said they had success going after guys they wanted on short term contracts to fill in while you wait until the right circumstance to use your high draft picks.

So if Warmack is so great and is gone by pick 14 then what. Your obsession with 1 player is ridiculous.

#78 Guest_BlueBoy_*

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:29 PM

You don't need a ballin secondary to win. You do have to have a dominant o line to keep your qb clean and pound the rock. As for you DT and WR guys ask how Suh, Fairley and Megatron are enjoying the playoffs.

I think our defense is decent enough that we can overlook it this draft. When or if we do make the playoff next year and get exposed we can focus that draft in that position of weakness. But when I watch the seahawks and 49ers offense in this playoff both QBs have gaping holes to run through espcially in pass plays. Their OL wear the defense out. I am so jealous watching that knowing Cam could be having a field day with those defenses every weekend.

#79 Guest_BlueBoy_*

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:49 PM

I have no problem upgrading on the o line but don't think you have to waste your highest picks on guards for example. For example San Francisco which has the best offensive line running the ball according to Football Outsiders had a 5th rounder for a center, Goodwin. Alex Boone who starts at right tackle is an undrafted free agent.
The best line protecting the quarterback, Detroit, has a guard in Robert Sims drafted by Seattle in the 5th round. Peterman on the other side was picked in the third round.

Lets look at NE who everyone toutes as having a great line. They have the philosophy of the next man up after injuries have caused issues. Still when their right tackle went down, Volmer- a second rounder, Marcus Cannon stepped in who is a fifth rounder with good results. Dan Connolly, their starting right guard is an undrafted free agent.

Let me check the moon lately, maybe it is a tad bit blue..........................................

Well, it doesn't mean all the starting linemans should be first rounders. But you cannot get away with all of them being undrafted FA. Just like any team the best 2 or 3 players are normally first rounders with other supporting cast. When you have a big time talent on your teams he carries the load for the supporting cast. Some tacles are so good that in certain plays they can block 2 players at once. If you have two players like on your offensive line the supporting cast can get away with making mistakes. Remember, those O lines are going against first round talents like Watt, Von Miller, etc. every sunday.

Also, there is a difference between being a back up player and being the 'guy'. Back ups always come in games and do well until they're named the starter with bigger money and more expections then they crumble and get other players injured. When backups come in the game they're playing with house money.

#80 panthers55

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:52 PM

I think our defense is decent enough that we can overlook it this draft. When or if we do make the playoff next year and get exposed we can focus that draft in that position of weakness. But when I watch the seahawks and 49ers offense in this playoff both QBs have gaping holes to run through espcially in pass plays. Their OL wear the defense out. I am so jealous watching that knowing Cam could be having a field day with those defenses every weekend.


Everyone assumes the offensive line sucks because we have bad players. Lets consider when you lose your all pro center, move your starting right guard to center, have a rookie at left guard and have to juggle pieces around, what kind of continuity and chemistry can you have.

We need a right guard that is really it. We don't have to replace the whole line.

#81 panthers55

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:58 PM

Well, it doesn't mean all the starting linemans should be first rounders. But you cannot get away with all of them being undrafted FA. Just like any team the best 2 or 3 players are normally first rounders with other supporting cast. When you have a big time talent on your teams he carries the load for the supporting cast. Some tacles are so good that in certain plays they can block 2 players at once. If you have two players like on your offensive line the supporting cast can get away with making mistakes. Remember, those O lines are going against first round talents like Watt, Von Miller, etc. every sunday.

Also, there is a difference between being a back up player and being the 'guy'. Back ups always come in games and do well until they're named the starter with bigger money and more expections then they crumble and get other players injured. When backups come in the game they're playing with house money.


This is the hyperbole that posters use here. Who says all our players are undrafted free agents. Right now our left tackle is a first round former pro-bowler. Our left guard is a rookie 2nd rounder who is still learning the job. Our center is a high second round pro-bowler. Hangartner was drafted by us in the fifth round and the only undrafted free agent was our right tackle Bell who played decently for a second year player. Based on your criteria we already have 3 guys who were first or second rounders and the other 2 are supporting guys.

So what is the problem and why do we need to spend the whole draft on the O line??? This is the same kind of crazy thinking people had about the D tackles last year and it worked out pretty good without drafting any of them high.

#82 Guest_BlueBoy_*

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:00 PM

Now go back in and name all of the top round picks on OLines....

Diamonds in the rough are rare and hard to come by and are not always available every single draft.

Warmack is talented enough to justify being picked at 14. You don't ignore talent or BPA especially when this team has glaring needs on the OLine.

I really don't understand a GM/Coach who doesn't undertstand the logic of fixing the O line once and for all in one draft and move forward to other position later on. I agree with you, if they just use this 14th pick to fix the O Line this year then they can use the rest of the picks and free agency to ugrade other spots. The draft should be used to fix a team's most glaring weakness. Not to fix every position all at once. I don't see what position is more valuable than O line right now that we can't be tweaked through some good coaching. Especially with Beason coming back our defensive is already top 15 right now.

#83 panthers55

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:09 PM

I really don't understand a GM/Coach who doesn't undertstand the logic of fixing the O line once and for all in one draft and move forward to other position later on. I agree with you, if they just use this 14th pick to fix the O Line this year then they can use the rest of the picks and free agency to ugrade other spots. The draft should be used to fix a team's most glaring weakness. Not to fix every position all at once. I don't see what position is more valuable than O line right now that we can't be tweaked through some good coaching. Especially with Beason coming back our defensive is already top 15 right now.


I agree we need a right guard, I just think you can fill the need some other way besides using the 14 pick. Even then what if Warmack is picked up earlier, then all these hundred of posts are worthless. I bet there are guys who are great at other points in the draft or are proven guys who can be had in free agency on 1 year deals.

What position is more valuable than O line. How about our number 1 corner when Gamble gets cut for cap purposes. How about a starting free safety because we don't have one and got burned deep too often. How about a dominant nose tackle because Edwards is going to be cut.

Once all the guys are released for cap purposes you will see how many positions are more important than a guard. You assume that everyone will be kept from last year. That isn't going to happen.

#84 Guest_BlueBoy_*

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:11 PM

That might be your logic, not mine. What I am saying is that many teams pick guards and centers outside of the first 2 rounds with great success. About the only position where it seems you have to have a first rounder is at left tackle. See above post.

I agree with this notion a little. Both LT & RT should be first round caliber(not necessarily first round). But I know one thing, if you put 3 first round caliber players on the O line we're a playoff team with those gaping holes they will open up and time they will provide Cam to find those holes. Just that thought makes me excited.

#85 MHS831

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:14 PM

I would love Warmack. However...

Gettlemen made a very interesting statement. He said the free agent market is pretty good because the cap is flat--money is limited. He also mentioned one-year contracts. Would he find the shopping cheaper in free agency for Guards or for CBs or WRs? In the draft, the players are paid based on where they are drafted. In free agency, positions have their own pay range. I think we will have a litte room in free agency after we make some moves.

Gettlemen also described the core of a winning team: QB, touchdown makers, and pass rush. (He then mentioned big guys). I think we have a QB, we have pass rushers (so did the Giants when they tool Pierre-Paul), so that leaves TD makers and big guys. What does a G cost in free agency? What about a WR?

I think we are more likely to draft a WR early and a G later, based on this one-sided logic. We need depth at G, so you take one in the fourth round and sign a vet to a one-year contract. If you draft Warmack, then sign a WR late to play behind a one-year contract free agent, the free agent costs more and the fourth rounder probably has less of a chance of starting. Whew. This is complex!

Again, I would LOVE Warmack and I think a RG is our biggest need. However.....

Lets do this in Salary formulas:

The Draft
WR (or CB) salary = G salary; Guards taken in the middle rounds are more successful than WRs (or CBs) taken in the middle rounds.
Free Agency
WR (or CB) salary > G salary

THEREFORE, smart money drafts the skill players and finds the RG later in the draft (supported by 1-year contract veteran).

These are not your Hurney's Panthers anymore.

#86 Guest_BlueBoy_*

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:16 PM

Was Carl Nicks a first rounder?? He was a fifth rounder. If Gettleman is as good as they say he is, we can get first rounder performance in the 3rd or 4th round.

Nobody says later round picks can't be successful. They're normally 2-3 year projects. First round talent are ready to contribute day one. That's why their money is garanteed. WE NEED TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS NOW! Not in 2-3 years.

#87 panthers55

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:18 PM

I would love Warmack. However...

Gettlemen made a very interesting statement. He said the free agent market is pretty good because the cap is flat--money is limited. He also mentioned one-year contracts. Would he find the shopping cheaper in free agency for Guards or for CBs or WRs? In the draft, the players are paid based on where they are drafted. In free agency, positions have their own pay range. I think we will have a litte room in free agency after we make some moves.

Gettlemen also described the core of a winning team: QB, touchdown makers, and pass rush. (He then mentioned big guys). I think we have a QB, we have pass rushers (so did the Giants when they tool Pierre-Paul), so that leaves TD makers and big guys. What does a G cost in free agency? What about a WR?

I think we are more likely to draft a WR early and a G later, based on this one-sided logic. We need depth at G, so you take one in the fourth round and sign a vet to a one-year contract. If you draft Warmack, then sign a WR late to play behind a one-year contract free agent, the free agent costs more and the fourth rounder probably has less of a chance of starting. Whew. This is complex!

Again, I would LOVE Warmack and I think a RG is our biggest need. However.....


I agree with your thinking about Gettleman. Add that the Giants haven't drafted any o linemen in the first round since 1999.
Before you decide what our biggest need is, what until we release our veterans to get under the cap. Some big names are going to go and several more holes may emerge. The thinking is that Gamble may be a cap casualty. Which is a bigger need then, right guard or number 1 corner??

#88 Guest_BlueBoy_*

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:32 PM

Well in 2010 the 49ers used two first round picks on two OLine players. Davis and Iupati.

Sorry if I don't agree with plug and play patchwork players to protect our franchise player. And we do not have the cap flexibility to bring in quality pieces...at any position...

Well, that's the reason we'll be watching Kaapernick going in superbowls year after year while a player with almost the same skill set as him, Cam, will have sophomore slump, junior slump, senior lump, 5th senior year slump...after knee surgery slump and finally backup QB slump. And the circle continues with the panthers with the next #1 overall pick QB. Hopefully Cam plays it smart in the next 2 years.

#89 panthers55

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:33 PM

Nobody says later round picks can't be successful. They're normally 2-3 year projects. First round talent are ready to contribute day one. That's why their money is garanteed. WE NEED TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS NOW! Not in 2-3 years.


Where did you get the idea that all first rounders are great day 1?? Talk to me about Ferguson for the Jets. He was a first rounder who has made 3 pro-bowls but took 3 years to get it together. Many first rounders get abused as rookies until they develop better hand and foot technique. For Every Ryan Clady there are just as many Ferguson's out there. And most rookie first round contracts are guaranteed.

Again if we need a proven guard, then get one in free agency. Shouldn't be that hard.

#90 panthers55

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:44 PM

I have seen 3 mock drafts that have Warmack going in the top 5. So do we still pick guard at number 14, or fill one of the other many needs??


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