105 replies to this topic

[CPF4LIFE]

Warmack isn't talented enough to be picked at 14. He's not ten spots better than DeCastro was. If guard were really an impact position, a guy as good as DeCastro would have gone earlier. Teams know that they can find starters later, whether by drafting college guards or grabbing tackles and converting them. It just isn't a good place to spend those resources.

lol

[panthers55]

So based on our history u suggest that we hand cuff ourselves and select another player or position based on past experiences and "value". What exactly is draft value and why does it matter that much to where it prevents a team from building itself by selecting quality players?

We aren't picking in the top 10 this year. Just an example...Warmack is a dominant SEC, monster, power guard. A mauler. Also a collegiate champion. We have issues with our line and protection. So because he's a guard this disqualifies him from being selected at 14??

Don't agree with your black and white concrete thinking. I think we use our first on a skill position and draft or pick up guards later in the draft or in free agency on a 1 year deal. Gettleman in his conference call today said you don't have to unload the bank or overspend for good players. They said they had success going after guys they wanted on short term contracts to fill in while you wait until the right circumstance to use your high draft picks.

So if Warmack is so great and is gone by pick 14 then what. Your obsession with 1 player is ridiculous.

[panthers55]

I think our defense is decent enough that we can overlook it this draft. When or if we do make the playoff next year and get exposed we can focus that draft in that position of weakness. But when I watch the seahawks and 49ers offense in this playoff both QBs have gaping holes to run through espcially in pass plays. Their OL wear the defense out. I am so jealous watching that knowing Cam could be having a field day with those defenses every weekend.

Everyone assumes the offensive line sucks because we have bad players. Lets consider when you lose your all pro center, move your starting right guard to center, have a rookie at left guard and have to juggle pieces around, what kind of continuity and chemistry can you have.

We need a right guard that is really it. We don't have to replace the whole line.

[panthers55]

Well, it doesn't mean all the starting linemans should be first rounders. But you cannot get away with all of them being undrafted FA. Just like any team the best 2 or 3 players are normally first rounders with other supporting cast. When you have a big time talent on your teams he carries the load for the supporting cast. Some tacles are so good that in certain plays they can block 2 players at once. If you have two players like on your offensive line the supporting cast can get away with making mistakes. Remember, those O lines are going against first round talents like Watt, Von Miller, etc. every sunday.

Also, there is a difference between being a back up player and being the 'guy'. Back ups always come in games and do well until they're named the starter with bigger money and more expections then they crumble and get other players injured. When backups come in the game they're playing with house money.

This is the hyperbole that posters use here. Who says all our players are undrafted free agents. Right now our left tackle is a first round former pro-bowler. Our left guard is a rookie 2nd rounder who is still learning the job. Our center is a high second round pro-bowler. Hangartner was drafted by us in the fifth round and the only undrafted free agent was our right tackle Bell who played decently for a second year player. Based on your criteria we already have 3 guys who were first or second rounders and the other 2 are supporting guys.

So what is the problem and why do we need to spend the whole draft on the O line??? This is the same kind of crazy thinking people had about the D tackles last year and it worked out pretty good without drafting any of them high.

[panthers55]

I really don't understand a GM/Coach who doesn't undertstand the logic of fixing the O line once and for all in one draft and move forward to other position later on. I agree with you, if they just use this 14th pick to fix the O Line this year then they can use the rest of the picks and free agency to ugrade other spots. The draft should be used to fix a team's most glaring weakness. Not to fix every position all at once. I don't see what position is more valuable than O line right now that we can't be tweaked through some good coaching. Especially with Beason coming back our defensive is already top 15 right now.

I agree we need a right guard, I just think you can fill the need some other way besides using the 14 pick. Even then what if Warmack is picked up earlier, then all these hundred of posts are worthless. I bet there are guys who are great at other points in the draft or are proven guys who can be had in free agency on 1 year deals.

What position is more valuable than O line. How about our number 1 corner when Gamble gets cut for cap purposes. How about a starting free safety because we don't have one and got burned deep too often. How about a dominant nose tackle because Edwards is going to be cut.

Once all the guys are released for cap purposes you will see how many positions are more important than a guard. You assume that everyone will be kept from last year. That isn't going to happen.

[MHS831]

I would love Warmack. However...

Gettlemen made a very interesting statement. He said the free agent market is pretty good because the cap is flat--money is limited. He also mentioned one-year contracts. Would he find the shopping cheaper in free agency for Guards or for CBs or WRs? In the draft, the players are paid based on where they are drafted. In free agency, positions have their own pay range. I think we will have a litte room in free agency after we make some moves.

Gettlemen also described the core of a winning team: QB, touchdown makers, and pass rush. (He then mentioned big guys). I think we have a QB, we have pass rushers (so did the Giants when they tool Pierre-Paul), so that leaves TD makers and big guys. What does a G cost in free agency? What about a WR?

I think we are more likely to draft a WR early and a G later, based on this one-sided logic. We need depth at G, so you take one in the fourth round and sign a vet to a one-year contract. If you draft Warmack, then sign a WR late to play behind a one-year contract free agent, the free agent costs more and the fourth rounder probably has less of a chance of starting. Whew. This is complex!

Again, I would LOVE Warmack and I think a RG is our biggest need. However.....

Lets do this in Salary formulas:

The Draft
WR (or CB) salary = G salary; Guards taken in the middle rounds are more successful than WRs (or CBs) taken in the middle rounds.
Free Agency
WR (or CB) salary > G salary

THEREFORE, smart money drafts the skill players and finds the RG later in the draft (supported by 1-year contract veteran).

These are not your Hurney's Panthers anymore.

[panthers55]

I would love Warmack. However...

Gettlemen made a very interesting statement. He said the free agent market is pretty good because the cap is flat--money is limited. He also mentioned one-year contracts. Would he find the shopping cheaper in free agency for Guards or for CBs or WRs? In the draft, the players are paid based on where they are drafted. In free agency, positions have their own pay range. I think we will have a litte room in free agency after we make some moves.

Gettlemen also described the core of a winning team: QB, touchdown makers, and pass rush. (He then mentioned big guys). I think we have a QB, we have pass rushers (so did the Giants when they tool Pierre-Paul), so that leaves TD makers and big guys. What does a G cost in free agency? What about a WR?

I think we are more likely to draft a WR early and a G later, based on this one-sided logic. We need depth at G, so you take one in the fourth round and sign a vet to a one-year contract. If you draft Warmack, then sign a WR late to play behind a one-year contract free agent, the free agent costs more and the fourth rounder probably has less of a chance of starting. Whew. This is complex!

Again, I would LOVE Warmack and I think a RG is our biggest need. However.....

I agree with your thinking about Gettleman. Add that the Giants haven't drafted any o linemen in the first round since 1999.
Before you decide what our biggest need is, what until we release our veterans to get under the cap. Some big names are going to go and several more holes may emerge. The thinking is that Gamble may be a cap casualty. Which is a bigger need then, right guard or number 1 corner??

[panthers55]

Nobody says later round picks can't be successful. They're normally 2-3 year projects. First round talent are ready to contribute day one. That's why their money is garanteed. WE NEED TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS NOW! Not in 2-3 years.

Where did you get the idea that all first rounders are great day 1?? Talk to me about Ferguson for the Jets. He was a first rounder who has made 3 pro-bowls but took 3 years to get it together. Many first rounders get abused as rookies until they develop better hand and foot technique. For Every Ryan Clady there are just as many Ferguson's out there. And most rookie first round contracts are guaranteed.

Again if we need a proven guard, then get one in free agency. Shouldn't be that hard.

[panthers55]

I have seen 3 mock drafts that have Warmack going in the top 5. So do we still pick guard at number 14, or fill one of the other many needs??