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Here's an interesting article on homosexuality and biblical scholarship


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#101 Kral

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:23 PM

How can I prove morality is from god...with out invoking god?


Morality is starting to fade and wain. Just as it says it did before in the bible and it will again is now.

Porn is a lot less shameful than it used to be. Its slowly becoming socially acceptable. Now we all talk about yeah I look at porn hahaha.
. Look at the changes in TV programming. My kids can hardly watch anything outside of Cartoon channels with out hearing curse words.
Somewhere in the not so distant past these things became not so bad. Eventually they will be accepted. How did we go from thats not good to man this is getting dirty. There are sexual innuendos all over prime time TV shows. Things that would have never been accepted years ago. Why do we shelter them kids from sex? There is no scientific reason to do so? There is no reason for a lot of things we do unless you turn to faith. Why do you hide these things from kids? Because you feel responsible to do so... but why?

You gonna tell me its because society was ingrained with it? How did society get ingrained with it? You mentioned its because its how your parents raised you... well extrapolate that to their parents and then their parents an so on.
Where does this theme of dessensitization end?
I'm interesting in seeing your take on this. Where did we learn shame?


It seems to me that here you stand arguing that morality is fluid. Ever changing. Not absolute. But you also want to assert it is based on the principles of an unchanging static deity (by that deity's own admission I believe... might be mistaken as I can't quote the verse to you) according to the teachings of the traditions from which that deity was borrowed.

My take? There is no objective morality is the start of my take on it. What is evil to me is not evil to you. If it were you would not assert mythology to be true unless we can demonstrate the veracity of its claims.

Where did we learn shame? At this time I don't know. Maybe I can research it to some extent. As of right now just guessing I would say that shame probably is related to genetic traits that were more successful because the emotion gives some kind of advantage to humans while interacting with other humans over those who do not have the emotion of shame. I really don't know though and it is okay to admit it. In fact it is better to admit not knowing than to assert without doubt that which I cannot show to be true.

#102 mmmbeans

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:28 PM

How can I prove morality is from god...with out invoking god?


Morality is starting to fade and wain. Just as it says it did before in the bible and it will again is now.

Porn is a lot less shameful than it used to be. Its slowly becoming socially acceptable. Now we all talk about yeah I look at porn hahaha.
. Look at the changes in TV programming. My kids can hardly watch anything outside of Cartoon channels with out hearing curse words.
Somewhere in the not so distant past these things became not so bad. Eventually they will be accepted. How did we go from thats not good to man this is getting dirty. There are sexual innuendos all over prime time TV shows. Things that would have never been accepted years ago. Why do we shelter them kids from sex? There is no scientific reason to do so? There is no reason for a lot of things we do unless you turn to faith. Why do you hide these things from kids? Because you feel responsible to do so... but why?

You gonna tell me its because society was ingrained with it? How did society get ingrained with it? You mentioned its because its how your parents raised you... well extrapolate that to their parents and then their parents an so on.
Where does this theme of dessensitization end?
I'm interesting in seeing your take on this. Where did we learn shame?


Posted Image

you aren't talking about the human species, you're talking about the United States... we don't reflect any kind of broad spectrum morality that's present in the rest of the world.

#103 Kral

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:36 PM

Also TB,

I contend morality cannot fade due to the nature of the concept. It can only change. For example it used to be the moral (righteous) thing to slay a deformed child in parts of the world. Now that practice is extremely uncommon and considered immoral (unrighteous) practically throughout the civilized world.

#104 TbTeRRoR

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:01 PM

How can people be degenerates and openly lay claim to beliefs among their peers but still feel shame when confronted by it with their elders. We all know people like this. Some of my friends are like this.(20-35 yrs old) They can go out and do all this tell me its perfectly fine and normal ,but let them present that to theirs parents even though said people range from 20- 35 there is no way they will do that. Because of Shame unless as I stated their parents were radical in nature Hippy/ Swinger or some type of anti mainstream society persons. This is what baffles. I know there are some shameless ones that pardon the phrase "dont give a flip"



You said something about genetics... well that is a stretch in its self. I can say its not impossible though I feel very unlikely that man ignored their instincts and set up their on morals which some how magically created the unatural but became natural effect of having felt shame.

#105 mmmbeans

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:08 PM

How can people be degenerates and openly lay claim to beliefs among their peers but still feel shame when confronted by it with their elders. We all know people like this. Some of my friends are like this.(20-35 yrs old) They can go out and do all this tell me its perfectly fine and normal ,but let them present that to theirs parents even though said people range from 20- 35 there is no way they will do that. Because of Shame unless as I stated their parents were radical in nature Hippy/ Swinger or some type of anti mainstream society persons. This is what baffles. I know there are some shameless ones that pardon the phrase "dont give a flip"



You said something about genetics... well that is a stretch in its self. I can say its not impossible though I feel very unlikely that man ignored their instincts and set up their on morals which some how magically created the unatural but became natural effect of having felt shame.


conditioning?

I used to have a dog right... that dog's natural place is ripping the absolute shiat out of my furniture... Now, a few weeks after having that dog, he no longer would rip up my furniture... in fact he'd slink away in shame if he was even caught NEAR the furniture. That dog, ignored his instincts and accepted a new value system...

How could such a thing happen?

#106 Kral

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:26 PM

How can people be degenerates and openly lay claim to beliefs among their peers but still feel shame when confronted by it with their elders. We all know people like this. Some of my friends are like this.(20-35 yrs old) They can go out and do all this tell me its perfectly fine and normal ,but let them present that to theirs parents even though said people range from 20- 35 there is no way they will do that. Because of Shame unless as I stated their parents were radical in nature Hippy/ Swinger or some type of anti mainstream society persons. This is what baffles. I know there are some shameless ones that pardon the phrase "dont give a flip"



You said something about genetics... well that is a stretch in its self. I can say its not impossible though I feel very unlikely that man ignored their instincts and set up their on morals which some how magically created the unatural but became natural effect of having felt shame.



Reread what I wrote. I did not assert anything as fact and merely flailed around imagining a possibility. I also openly admitted I didn't know and as such I do not expect you to subscribe to the thought I presented as truth. Maybe something to think about at most.

Shame is not unnatural. It is perfectly natural as evidenced by observing humans (a natural creature). Other animals might even experience it. We are discovering more and more about the sentience of other animals which is throwing many things we thought of as exclusively human right out the window. See crows having the theory of mind.

These people you mentioned have been conditioned to think this way by their early childhood experiences. What you described is an effect of negative reinforcement and not trusting one's parents because of childhood trauma or indoctrination. That is my suspicion anyway.

Anecdotal evidence is one of the weakest forms you can use to try to convince someone of anything. Keep that in mind when talking about your experiences and your friends experiences as anything more than a footnote to a previously otherwise supported point.

Now do you think that it makes more sense that genetics (which we can prove exists) or a deity (that we cannot yet prove exists) as the possible source of shame? What about as a result of indoctrination and childhood trauma versus a deity? Both of those options seem simpler to me and we can show that both of them actually exist unlike the deity that you claim and present no evidence for despite my earlier challenges. Please note I do not ask you to actually believe as true either hypothesis here only that you weigh them in relation to your claim of a deity.

I wish someone educated on the subject could give us some relevant opinion on observations of shame and the related effects within the human body.

As the previous poster also said: conditioning! I knew I was forgetting something important.

Also you labeling them as degenerates shows that BAM you just judged them despite what your religious text has to say on the matter.

#107 PhillyB

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:40 PM

Its incredibly hard to prove this but just has hard to give a rational explanation of how humans got morals.
Because my version takes faith which you would have to have to believe in I couldn't readily explain it.

How about you explain how morals started? According to evolution we grew up as animals. Men took whatever women the wanted when they wanted Who could have gotten together and changed this? Especially given all the different isolated or warring societies that would have been present then. How did we get to the point were men agreed that they just couldn't take any woman they wanted? Society can hardly agree on anything today. Under evolution we arrived here from single cell organisms to man how did morality find a its roots? Keeping in mind there are some highly intelligent animals that have no morals. Is morality an effect of a soul. Who decided right and wrong? How could everyone agree on that when we cannot agree on a crap-ton-load of other topics. What quelled our animal instincts? How do you justiify morality with out god?


"i can't answer these questions, therefore there must not be answers!"

#108 Kral

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:50 PM

"i can't answer these questions, therefore there must not be answers!"


Like I said god of the gaps.

#109 PhillyB

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:03 PM

Like I said god of the gaps.


it's amazing to me that that phrase was coined by dietrich bonhoeffer, a christian thinker and philosopher. the past two hundred years of legitimate christian scholarship has, by and large, been squashed under the boot of frantic biblical literalists whose dangerous fundamentalism has resulted in people like TbTeRrOr getting on the internet and espousing absurdities like "single mothers effectively cause shootings" and "man look at society's slide towards apostasy, back in the day you couldn't swear and stuff and now you hear swear words on tv"

#110 TbTeRRoR

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:08 PM

As far as training the dog goes.... you are his master and superior and he wants to please you. You can see how excited he gets when he pleases you..... who is YOUR MASTER AND SUPERIOR?


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