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Here's an interesting article on homosexuality and biblical scholarship


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#151 TbTeRRoR

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 07:02 PM

Christians tend to harp on actions, and how actions condemn a person. Yet we miss the most important part completely. Men and women are not sinners because they sin, they sin because their sinners. It's in our DNA! So all this harping on homosexuality and how homosexuals should stop their feelings, is impossible to do. By the way, sin only exists if Genesis literally happened. The word means "to miss the mark". In terms of creation and our bodies, we are way off the mark concerning how we were in the day God created us. Thus we are sinners by nature.

For those interested, the word repent in the greek means to "change the mind". Anyone who says repent in terms of Christianity and see that word as feeling sorrowful or physically turning away from sin, that is not accurate at all. When a sinner repents, it means the person now sees himself/herself corrupt and unable to do good. Once they changed their mind about themselves, then they believe on Christ, receive His nature.



I'm with you on this Matthias. I once felt that we should block same sex marriage but now I realize its not for me to deal with. That will be between them and God, but if you ask me I still don't agree with it, but I don't agree with blocking it either. As far as repenting goes I've heard many variations Its hard to clear my head and get it straight. I'm not sure because I'm not the judge. It says that when you are saved you find repentence and the old you is gone and you start anew. You will still sin(always) but the new you shouldn't have habitual sin. There is a pasage about that in the bible but I forgot exactly where. Thats why I have a problem with homosexuals getting "ordained" as priest/ ministers... The way I see it is that they can't be homosexual and saved becuase they are not casting out the old... That is just my take, but like I said about the marriages I cannot judge so I should not worry about it.

#152 chris999

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 08:15 PM

It's all about Liberty. You dont tread on me, I dont tread on you.

Do as you will as long as you do not infringe on the rights of others. Two people of the same sex want to get married, do it. Just dont be up in my business about the way I want to live my life.



The main reason I had to drop away from the Republican party was because of the way they treated Ron Paul (a real awaking experience for me)... and because they disgustingly keep on using religion as a political weapon, but never keep the promises that they make about their morality. It is just a dirty lie that they tell so that poor southern and midwestern people will always vote for the GOP. Your own Bible warns you about the kind of people that use false promises concerning religion and politics.

The Democrats suck too because they represent the people who wont help themselves instead of the poor like me who bust my ass, but still get my taxes raised. The two parties only cater to the two extremes of the spectrum, the extreme rich, or the extreme poor.

TLDR I know, but sometimes I like to express my frustration with the ills of society by typing it out.

#153 PhillyB

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:47 PM

Thats why I have a problem with homosexuals getting "ordained" as priest/ ministers... The way I see it is that they can't be homosexual and saved becuase they are not casting out the old...


can you have extramartital heterosexual sex and be "saved"?

can you tell lies and be "saved"?

can you get divorced and be "saved"?

can you be prideful and be "saved"?

can you look at porn with lust in your heart and be "saved"?

can you speak in church as a woman and be "saved"?

can you speak to your brother in anger and be "saved"?

can you be rich and be "saved"?

#154 chris999

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:59 PM

I dont understand why religious people are so concerned about the way that other people want to live their lives.

Personally, I think Jesus' message was about love and forgiveness, not about 'threatening the fags with hellfire....'


Your faith is between you, your God and your church. If other people choose not to live by your religion, that is fine, because there are many religions on this Earth, and many non-religious people.

It is just the Christian church sticking their nose in politics where it doesnt belong. They have 2000 years of history of condemning and even killing the people who do not submit to them.

America was founded on people having to leave Europe because different sects of Christianity were killing and oppressing each other. Institutional religion is against Jesus' teachings,and is and always has been a total scam designed for political control. All that real Christians need is to live their life by Jesus' teachings.

#155 TANTRIC-NINJA

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:06 AM

“@TheTweetOfGod: INJURY REPORT: Jesus's return is questionable.”

#156 Matthias

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:43 PM

I'm with you on this Matthias. I once felt that we should block same sex marriage but now I realize its not for me to deal with. That will be between them and God, but if you ask me I still don't agree with it, but I don't agree with blocking it either. As far as repenting goes I've heard many variations Its hard to clear my head and get it straight. I'm not sure because I'm not the judge. It says that when you are saved you find repentence and the old you is gone and you start anew. You will still sin(always) but the new you shouldn't have habitual sin. There is a pasage about that in the bible but I forgot exactly where. Thats why I have a problem with homosexuals getting "ordained" as priest/ ministers... The way I see it is that they can't be homosexual and saved becuase they are not casting out the old... That is just my take, but like I said about the marriages I cannot judge so I should not worry about it.


With these bodies, we can sin. As a believer, we now have the freedom not to sin, yet even if we sin, we have to remember that sin was also placed on the cross and judged on Jesus as well. We realize that and move on in Christ, so we are no longer conscious of sin. (The more conscious you are of sin, the more you will commit sin. This is why the Ten Commandments were the strength of sin, because it constantly reminded us of who we are. Now that Jesus have come, we see that He is our righteousness. As we look more towards Him, seeing ourselves in Him, we will be transformed into into that same image. Sinning less and less, and yes, even not stumbling at all when you are completely aware of who you are in Christ)

Repentance means to change your mind. In order for a sinner to truly repent, he/she must realize he falls well short of God's standard. That there's nothing he can do to reach that standard. A homosexual priest haven't completely changed their mind concerning sin. They say it's not a sin, and therefore they are still sinners because Jesus can't take that sin upon Himself if they won't give it to Him. So they justify themselves instead of Jesus justifying them. So you are right, they haven't cast away the old nature in that regard. (Even if they knew we receive Jesus' righteousness to be justified, there is no such thing as being 90% saved, seeing 10% of the old nature not being off the mark)

#157 PhillyB

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:47 PM

what about slave owners that died having never recognized that owning another human being was a sin? Is every slave owner pre-1865 in hell?

#158 Matthias

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:09 PM

what about slave owners that died having never recognized that owning another human being was a sin? Is every slave owner pre-1865 in hell?


Anyone seeking to justify themselves before God, will fall short. Of course, God will judge us based on what we know. With all that said, American slave owners sought to use the Bible (OT) to justify african slavery (and native american slavery for that matter). Yet according to the laws of the OT, if you captured anyone to make him a slave, the person who captured the slave would be put to death, and the slave was set free. According to the laws of the OT, the whole US would have been put to death.

#159 PhillyB

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:20 PM

Anyone seeking to justify themselves before God, will fall short. Of course, God will judge us based on what we know. With all that said, American slave owners sought to use the Bible (OT) to justify african slavery (and native american slavery for that matter). Yet according to the laws of the OT, if you captured anyone to make him a slave, the person who captured the slave would be put to death, and the slave was set free. According to the laws of the OT, the whole US would have been put to death.


so if a gay person honestly thinks there's nothing wrong with homosexuality and lives his life out accordingly, is he going to hell?

#160 Matthias

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:34 PM

so if a gay person honestly thinks there's nothing wrong with homosexuality and lives his life out accordingly, is he going to hell?


Yes because it would mean he's justifying himself before God. I'm assuming this person knows who God is and experienced Him in some way. It all goes back to knowing, because that is what God is going to judge us by. Not everyone knows of God or experienced His goodness.

Let me say it another way. If God was staring you in the face, the one who knows everything and sees everything, and He told you homosexuality is off the standard of where He created us, what knowledge would you have to tell God He's wrong?

#161 PhillyB

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:46 PM

Yes because it would mean he's justifying himself before God. I'm assuming this person knows who God is and experienced Him in some way. It all goes back to knowing, because that is what God is going to judge us by. Not everyone knows of God or experienced His goodness.

Let me say it another way. If God was staring you in the face, the one who knows everything and sees everything, and He told you homosexuality is off the standard of where He created us, what knowledge would you have to tell God He's wrong?


but the bible makes it clear that owning another person is an asshole thing to do, and you just said that all former slave owners aren't necessarily going to hell. isn't this a double standard?

#162 Matthias

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:50 PM

but the bible makes it clear that owning another person is an asshole thing to do, and you just said that all former slave owners aren't necessarily going to hell. isn't this a double standard?


I said God judge us based on what we know. There are children who commit crime, but because they didn't know it was a crime, they aren't judged like an adult who was fully aware. God will judge us based on what we know.

#163 PhillyB

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:57 PM

I said God judge us based on what we know. There are children who commit crime, but because they didn't know it was a crime, they aren't judged like an adult who was fully aware. God will judge us based on what we know.


well i just asked if a gay man who doesn't know being gay is wrong is going to hell and you said yes. are you changing your answer?

#164 Matthias

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:05 PM

well i just asked if a gay man who doesn't know being gay is wrong is going to hell and you said yes. are you changing your answer?



Nope, you said if he doesn't "think" there's nothing wrong with it. There's a difference. I got from that he's been told, and he knows what God has said concerning it. Yet he doesn't see anything wrong with it, he is now justifying himself. He knows God says it's not how He created us, yet the man accepts it because he can find nothing wrong with it. It's like a criminal finding nothing wrong with his crime. He is still judged for it because he knows the law.

#165 PhillyB

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:14 PM

Nope, you said if he doesn't "think" there's nothing wrong with it. There's a difference. I got from that he's been told, and he knows what God has said concerning it. Yet he doesn't see anything wrong with it, he is now justifying himself. He knows God says it's not how He created us, yet the man accepts it because he can find nothing wrong with it. It's like a criminal finding nothing wrong with his crime. He is still judged for it because he knows the law.


you only "know" that homosexuality is wrong because you think that biblical literalism is the correct (and only) way to interpret the scriptures. a gay man may very well "not know" that homosexuality is wrong because he doesn't "know" that mosaic cosmogonies are "correct."

the dynamic you're describing here is cripplingly simplistic and ignores the complexity of interpretive analysis and its epistemological effects. it also happens to be the reason establishment christianity is dying.


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