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Here's an interesting article on homosexuality and biblical scholarship


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#106 Kral

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:26 PM

How can people be degenerates and openly lay claim to beliefs among their peers but still feel shame when confronted by it with their elders. We all know people like this. Some of my friends are like this.(20-35 yrs old) They can go out and do all this tell me its perfectly fine and normal ,but let them present that to theirs parents even though said people range from 20- 35 there is no way they will do that. Because of Shame unless as I stated their parents were radical in nature Hippy/ Swinger or some type of anti mainstream society persons. This is what baffles. I know there are some shameless ones that pardon the phrase "dont give a flip"



You said something about genetics... well that is a stretch in its self. I can say its not impossible though I feel very unlikely that man ignored their instincts and set up their on morals which some how magically created the unatural but became natural effect of having felt shame.



Reread what I wrote. I did not assert anything as fact and merely flailed around imagining a possibility. I also openly admitted I didn't know and as such I do not expect you to subscribe to the thought I presented as truth. Maybe something to think about at most.

Shame is not unnatural. It is perfectly natural as evidenced by observing humans (a natural creature). Other animals might even experience it. We are discovering more and more about the sentience of other animals which is throwing many things we thought of as exclusively human right out the window. See crows having the theory of mind.

These people you mentioned have been conditioned to think this way by their early childhood experiences. What you described is an effect of negative reinforcement and not trusting one's parents because of childhood trauma or indoctrination. That is my suspicion anyway.

Anecdotal evidence is one of the weakest forms you can use to try to convince someone of anything. Keep that in mind when talking about your experiences and your friends experiences as anything more than a footnote to a previously otherwise supported point.

Now do you think that it makes more sense that genetics (which we can prove exists) or a deity (that we cannot yet prove exists) as the possible source of shame? What about as a result of indoctrination and childhood trauma versus a deity? Both of those options seem simpler to me and we can show that both of them actually exist unlike the deity that you claim and present no evidence for despite my earlier challenges. Please note I do not ask you to actually believe as true either hypothesis here only that you weigh them in relation to your claim of a deity.

I wish someone educated on the subject could give us some relevant opinion on observations of shame and the related effects within the human body.

As the previous poster also said: conditioning! I knew I was forgetting something important.

Also you labeling them as degenerates shows that BAM you just judged them despite what your religious text has to say on the matter.

#107 PhillyB

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:40 PM

Its incredibly hard to prove this but just has hard to give a rational explanation of how humans got morals.
Because my version takes faith which you would have to have to believe in I couldn't readily explain it.

How about you explain how morals started? According to evolution we grew up as animals. Men took whatever women the wanted when they wanted Who could have gotten together and changed this? Especially given all the different isolated or warring societies that would have been present then. How did we get to the point were men agreed that they just couldn't take any woman they wanted? Society can hardly agree on anything today. Under evolution we arrived here from single cell organisms to man how did morality find a its roots? Keeping in mind there are some highly intelligent animals that have no morals. Is morality an effect of a soul. Who decided right and wrong? How could everyone agree on that when we cannot agree on a crap-ton-load of other topics. What quelled our animal instincts? How do you justiify morality with out god?


"i can't answer these questions, therefore there must not be answers!"

#108 Kral

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:50 PM

"i can't answer these questions, therefore there must not be answers!"


Like I said god of the gaps.

#109 PhillyB

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:03 PM

Like I said god of the gaps.


it's amazing to me that that phrase was coined by dietrich bonhoeffer, a christian thinker and philosopher. the past two hundred years of legitimate christian scholarship has, by and large, been squashed under the boot of frantic biblical literalists whose dangerous fundamentalism has resulted in people like TbTeRrOr getting on the internet and espousing absurdities like "single mothers effectively cause shootings" and "man look at society's slide towards apostasy, back in the day you couldn't swear and stuff and now you hear swear words on tv"

#110 TbTeRRoR

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:08 PM

As far as training the dog goes.... you are his master and superior and he wants to please you. You can see how excited he gets when he pleases you..... who is YOUR MASTER AND SUPERIOR?

#111 mmmbeans

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

As far as training the dog goes.... you are his master and superior and he wants to please you. You can see how excited he gets when he pleases you..... who is YOUR MASTER AND SUPERIOR?


Is that why he tried to destroy my furniture? Because he wanted to please me? You ignore my point and turn it in to a god allegory.

My kid doesn't do good things because she's inherently good... she does them because I taught her that those were the right things to do. Those values were bestowed upon her by me... Just as they were passed down to me from my parents.

Morals and values are learned... this conversation is evidence enough to that.

#112 Kral

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:16 PM

As far as training the dog goes.... you are his master and superior and he wants to please you. You can see how excited he gets when he pleases you..... who is YOUR MASTER AND SUPERIOR?


When you are a child that would be your parents. When you give the dog to a new owner the conditioning goes with him.

#113 TbTeRRoR

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:09 PM

it's amazing to me that that phrase was coined by dietrich bonhoeffer, a christian thinker and philosopher. the past two hundred years of legitimate christian scholarship has, by and large, been squashed under the boot of frantic biblical literalists whose dangerous fundamentalism has resulted in people like TbTeRrOr getting on the internet and espousing absurdities like "single mothers effectively cause shootings" and "man look at society's slide towards apostasy, back in the day you couldn't swear and stuff and now you hear swear words on tv"

You know I'm getting quiet tired of you misquoting me on the single mother deal.. in fact I never specifically said single mother I said working mothers who don't rais their own children and it wasn't to the context of one shooting. It was about why the world was turning into a worse place to live. Why more bad things would happen. You don't install values in your kids anymore.

#114 Matthias

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:25 PM

Christians tend to harp on actions, and how actions condemn a person. Yet we miss the most important part completely. Men and women are not sinners because they sin, they sin because their sinners. It's in our DNA! So all this harping on homosexuality and how homosexuals should stop their feelings, is impossible to do. By the way, sin only exists if Genesis literally happened. The word means "to miss the mark". In terms of creation and our bodies, we are way off the mark concerning how we were in the day God created us. Thus we are sinners by nature.

For those interested, the word repent in the greek means to "change the mind". Anyone who says repent in terms of Christianity and see that word as feeling sorrowful or physically turning away from sin, that is not accurate at all. When a sinner repents, it means the person now sees himself/herself corrupt and unable to do good. Once they changed their mind about themselves, then they believe on Christ, receive His nature.

#115 Kral

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:41 PM

How did you come by this philosophy?

Genuine curiosity.

#116 Matthias

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:47 PM

How did you come by this philosophy?

Genuine curiosity.


What about it specifically you want to know concerning it?

#117 Kral

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:56 PM

Yet we miss the most important part completely. Men and women are not sinners because they sin, they sin because their sinners. It's in our DNA!


if Genesis literally happened.


In terms of creation and our bodies, we are way off the mark concerning how we were in the day God created us.


I guess this most specifically.

I get what you were saying about the Greek usage of repentance in the New Testament however I do not see how you can legitimately claim a person can do no good at all unless they see themselves as someone who is unable to do good. Can you explain this as well?

#118 Matthias

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:11 PM

I guess this most specifically.

I get what you were saying about the Greek usage of repentance in the New Testament however I do not see how you can legitimately claim a person can do no good at all unless they see themselves as someone who is unable to do good. Can you explain this as well?


When say I good, I mean it in an absolute term. We all have the sense of right and wrong, as we grow and as time move on, we tweak it to better suit human living condition. Yet if we are to use good as an absolute term, where evil didn't exist, then no one is that because we all have a little bit of evil within us. (And I say a little bit of evil in a relative term, but to a perfect person, having in any evil in you makes you just plain evil)

Now in terms of a literal Genesis, God created us to live forever. The very fact that we die, means our bodies are off the mark, and are not working like when God first created man.

#119 Kral

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:15 PM

In what way is sinning in our DNA?

Additionally what is absolute good?

I find both of these concepts puzzling.

#120 Matthias

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:30 PM

In what way is sinning in our DNA?

Additionally what is absolute good?

I find both of these concepts puzzling.


Sinning is in our DNA as in our bodies are corrupt. Everything about us, our thinking and how we treat each other, is simply not how God created us to operate. Our DNA is information of our makeup. We are essentially copies of our parents in a way, and if one believe in the literal Genesis, our information ultimately goes back to Adam and Eve. When they fell, it was like a virus entered in, a disease that began to tear at their bodies. We inherited this disease, just like sickle cell traits are passed down. That is why we can't be good, or you can say be perfect, because our makeup can no longer do what it could in the day of creation.

What is absolute good? Pretty much perfection. Having no evil. Yet we can just leave it at absolute good. We see good in relative ways, that's why people change over time, views change. Yet if there was an absolute good, if there was a level that did not change, that kind of good condemns us.


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