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Talent or Coaching?


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#16 rayzor

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:34 AM

<King of Pain was the best track>

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i actually liked synchronicity II, walking in your footsteps, and ms gradenko more. mother was a lot of fun as well. great album. gonna have to download it.

#17 Marguide

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 03:10 AM

i actually liked synchronicity II, walking in your footsteps, and ms gradenko more. mother was a lot of fun as well. great album. gonna have to download it.


As long as we are now derailed with talk of the Police, one of the fond memories from my youth was seeing the Police at a bar on the St. Louis riverfront. This was shortly after Roxanne started to get a lot of play on the radio. Admission cost, $3.

#18 JawnyBlaze

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:53 AM

I think our team is far more player talent rich than coach talent. The guys that even non panther fans have to admit are talented: cam, Kalil, Smitty, double trouble, CJ, kraken, beason, Luke, td. That's plenty. The only coaching talent we have is defensive. They definitely had our secondary over achieving based on talent.

#19 rayzor

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:24 PM

As long as we are now derailed with talk of the Police, one of the fond memories from my youth was seeing the Police at a bar on the St. Louis riverfront. This was shortly after Roxanne started to get a lot of play on the radio. Admission cost, $3.

wow. that would have been awesome. the first i really started paying attention was de do do do de da da da in '80 when i was 10. i wore that .45 out. that b side was pretty freaky to me, btw. i usually loved the b sides of those records but that was one i could never get into.

#20 Cyberjag

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:12 PM

Talent doesn't vary THAT widely from team to team. What you need is a typical roster bolstered by a few playmakers, preferably one being your quarterback. And then you need a coach who can put the team in a position to succeed, and teach them how to do so. For instance, you don't ask a bunch of road grading offensive linemen to zone-block, it doesn't play to their strengths.

Consider what Harbaugh did out in San Francisco, since it's been brought up already. He doubled down on his defense, which is where his playmakers were. He also had Frank Gore, but he was saddled with Alex Smith under center. So he basically puts in a bunch of quick passes, and when he needs to go longer he has Smith roll out so he only has to track half the field. In short, Smith is put in a role that maximizes his strengths and responds with an amazing year. Same talent, but coached differently, and different results.

Then there was the Front Office work. Since Harbaugh's arrived he has turned over half his starting lineup. It's not like he's upgraded at every position, he's just put in pieces that he thinks will work better in his scheme. And it's really starting to show on the field. That's a different part of coaching, and time will tell if he's as good at it as he is the tactical, but early returns are promising.

The Panthers have plenty of talent, and Rivera is very good at teaching. He has a teaching staff as well. I don't think he worked well with Hurney, which is why Hurney was at a loss as to why the Panthers were losing early on--he thought he had given his coach the tools he needed to win, and it wasn't happening. So now Rivera is getting the tools from Gettleman, and it will be interesting to see if that pair works better. Hopefully, they will be, and hopefully Rivera will be better at the tactical part of his job next year.

#21 FootballMaestro

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:19 PM

Talent doesn't vary THAT widely from team to team. What you need is a typical roster bolstered by a few playmakers, preferably one being your quarterback. And then you need a coach who can put the team in a position to succeed, and teach them how to do so. For instance, you don't ask a bunch of road grading offensive linemen to zone-block, it doesn't play to their strengths.

Consider what Harbaugh did out in San Francisco, since it's been brought up already. He doubled down on his defense, which is where his playmakers were. He also had Frank Gore, but he was saddled with Alex Smith under center. So he basically puts in a bunch of quick passes, and when he needs to go longer he has Smith roll out so he only has to track half the field. In short, Smith is put in a role that maximizes his strengths and responds with an amazing year. Same talent, but coached differently, and different results.

Then there was the Front Office work. Since Harbaugh's arrived he has turned over half his starting lineup. It's not like he's upgraded at every position, he's just put in pieces that he thinks will work better in his scheme. And it's really starting to show on the field. That's a different part of coaching, and time will tell if he's as good at it as he is the tactical, but early returns are promising.

The Panthers have plenty of talent, and Rivera is very good at teaching. He has a teaching staff as well. I don't think he worked well with Hurney, which is why Hurney was at a loss as to why the Panthers were losing early on--he thought he had given his coach the tools he needed to win, and it wasn't happening. So now Rivera is getting the tools from Gettleman, and it will be interesting to see if that pair works better. Hopefully, they will be, and hopefully Rivera will be better at the tactical part of his job next year.


Excellent post. :D :D

Nothing else to say.

Coaching and front office can/does matter, and bring out more or the best of said players.

#22 Icege

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:31 PM

I also think that some fans were expecting an immediate turn around after Fox's lame duck season without taking into consideration how badly the roster had been gutted. This was Rivera's second season as a head coach and the team's second season rebuilding the roster. The magic number that is thrown around is 3. The third season is where a player should be able to "get it." If not, they'll soon be out the door. That core that the team sought to retain is now in a position where their contracts are hurting the team, which is why Hurney is gone. I think that we're going to see more releasing and restructuring before we see any type of significant pick-ups. The coaching scheme shows promise. The most we can really do at this point is hurry up and wait unfortunately while speculating what type of moves the team will make in the draft.

I'm patient to a fault at times, but I will say that next season is playoffs or bust. The talent is there, now it's up to whether or not they can be coached to excellence.

#23 Marguide

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:33 PM

Agree as well with everything written by Cyber.

Have some phone pie until I get back to my computer.

#24 rayzor

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:40 PM

I also think that some fans were expecting an immediate turn around after Fox's lame duck season without taking into consideration how badly the roster had been gutted. This was Rivera's second season as a head coach and the team's second season rebuilding the roster. The magic number that is thrown around is 3. The third season is where a player should be able to "get it." If not, they'll soon be out the door. That core that the team sought to retain is now in a position where their contracts are hurting the team, which is why Hurney is gone. I think that we're going to see more releasing and restructuring before we see any type of significant pick-ups. The coaching scheme shows promise. The most we can really do at this point is hurry up and wait unfortunately while speculating what type of moves the team will make in the draft.

I'm patient to a fault at times, but I will say that next season is playoffs or bust. The talent is there, now it's up to whether or not they can be coached to excellence by this coaching staff.

fixed.

a better and more experienced coaching staff would get more out of this team.

#25 mickdman

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:51 PM

defense is more coaching, offenses is more players, for example offenses need a good QB, there is no way especially in the NFL to scheme around having a shitty QB.

Defense on the other hand you can have average players all around and still scheme yourself to a top 10 maybe even 5 defense with the right coach.


I have to agree with this sentiment. The first thing an offense needs is an elite QB. Not mediocre or average but elite. There are 32 teams and I guarantee not all have elite QB's. Carolina is lucky because I believe Cam is on his way there. He is not there yet but on his way. What I am saying is that it is a mixture on offense between coach and QB. Coaching can help with development but it can also get that coach fired ie. Jay Cutler in Chicago and Denver. The QB also has to have a drive to want to improve and be considered great.

#26 panthers55

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:57 PM

It takes talent and coaching. It takes coaching what talent you have while you acquire talent to run what you want. I think both coordinators and Rivera have stressed they were going to adapt the scheme to fit the players and have done that pretty well. Rivera can run a 3-4 or a 4-3 but uses a 4-3 base because that is what our talent calls for. Our offense is built around Newton and what he does well. I see pretty good halftime adjustments and good initial gameplans. We could improve on time management and late game decisions but overall I think Rivera has done a decent job with what he was given in 2010. We are much better off going into 2013 then we were going in 2011.


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