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Gettleman not sold on read option


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#196 panthers55

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:24 PM

I'm not defending that particular poster, but it should be pointed out we were in a shotgun formation for close to 85% of plays in the first part of this season. Even last year, we were in shotgun almost 65% of the time.

Given the pistol is similar to the shotgun (QB a bit shallower, RB lined up behind QB), being in that formation 70% of the time is not far fetched.


It depends if we are going to more of a power running game with a fullback. If you figure we run the I formation 25% and he takes snaps under center, and are in the shotgun 25% of the time, you would have a hard time being in the pistol 70% of the time.

#197 Marguide

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:34 PM

It depends if we are going to more of a power running game with a fullback. If you figure we run the I formation 25% and he takes snaps under center, and are in the shotgun 25% of the time, you would have a hard time being in the pistol 70% of the time.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating we run the pistol or the shotgun 70% of the time. I prefer it when we have a bit more balance between the gun/pistol and under center plays. Maybe 55% to 60% max in either the gun or pistol just to throw a number out there.

I was just responding to Madhatter who thought 70% pistol was absurd and the dumbest thing ever posted on the board. 70% is in the realm of possibility and we all know there have been almost an unlimited number of stupid things posted here over time. :cool:

#198 panthers55

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:39 PM

That's the beauty of the read option, my man! Either the QB or RB is gonna eat you up because you don't have enough personnels to crash on both behind the line of scrimmage. Gore was picking up at least 5 yards per carry. Did you also notice how those receivers were running in the middle of the field whide opponent? Thanks for making my point though.


They do not run the triple option or wishbone or any other option formation, they run the pistol formation which you can use to run the read option play. What makes the read option effective is the ability to pass the ball not run with it all the time. Yes San Fran did run the read option play but against Atlanta not all that well. Most of the time they ran Gore on handoffs and more traditional runs. Gore had 21 carries for 90 yards or an ordinary 4 yards a carry against a defense that gave up 4.8 during the season. So it was not that big of a deal. When they did run the read option they pitched it to Gore because the linebackers were not taking the runners on when the D E came up and took the QB. How many points did the 49ers have in the first half when they were running the read option more frequently?? Yeah 7. Their big plays came with long passes over the middle to Davis or Crabtree when they were using play action or dropping back to pass.

#199 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:50 PM

No they didn't. You are confusing a formation like the pistol formation with the read option which is a play. They did not run the read option all that much. And when they did run the pistol he handed off the ball not pitched it which is what you do around the end on the read option play. The read option as you know is based on what the DE does and they were doing more straight hand offs to the back and play action not holding the ball and waiting to run or pitch. Did they run it 6 or 7 times?? yes, was that all day?? No.


SF ran the read option much more than 6 times against Atl. They easily ran it that many times on a single drive.

They kept handing the ball off over and over to the RB in the read option bc of the DE play....still a read option. Atl forced that...and paid for it. The DEs were playing contain and obviously doing it....let them be gashed by RBs as CK could easily call the RBs number. QB doesn't have to run for it to be the read option play.

Pitching is an an option play.....something totally different than the zone reads (read option) everyone is doing.

#200 poorboysrev

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:54 PM

Wr's open over the middle happens any time you have a successful running game. whether it's power I, read option whatever.

#201 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:58 PM

They do not run the triple option or wishbone or any other option formation, they run the pistol formation which you can use to run the read option play. What makes the read option effective is the ability to pass the ball not run with it all the time. Yes San Fran did run the read option play but against Atlanta not all that well. Most of the time they ran Gore on handoffs and more traditional runs. Gore had 21 carries for 90 yards or an ordinary 4 yards a carry against a defense that gave up 4.8 during the season. So it was not that big of a deal. When they did run the read option they pitched it to Gore because the linebackers were not taking the runners on when the D E came up and took the QB. How many points did the 49ers have in the first half when they were running the read option more frequently?? Yeah 7. Their big plays came with long passes over the middle to Davis or Crabtree when they were using play action or dropping back to pass.


How was the read option not all that successful? Late in the game Atl was abused by it....they where so focused on not letting CK run they were gashed by the RB. DEs playing contain allowed big holes....SF took advantage

#202 panthers55

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:00 PM

There are only 4 read option teams in the league so if even 1 make the top of the list that's a high success rate. All 4 of them had at least top 10 offenses? And 3 made the playoffs with 1 in the superbowl. I'm not a gambling man but I would take that odd any day. And that 1600 yards morris ran came of the read option.


There are no read option teams, there are teams that incorporate the read option play into their basic system which is often run out of the pistol formation. The distinction is important because none of those teams run a read option play more than 10% of the time. That means that they run something else 90% of the time. The read option is not why they were successful, it was because they could pass to keep teams from loading the box to stop the read option.

If you look at the teams who were top 10 in average passing yards per completion, 7 of the ten were in the playoffs. The ones that missed it? Carolina, New Orleans and Dallas. Many of the top offensive schemes were top 10 in passing and a number had 1000 yard rushers and the large majority did not come off the read option. Most teams that ran the read option play did not run the play more than a dozen times a game, most much less. If the quarterback gets the ball 5 or 6 times, that gives the back the other 6 carries. Times 16 games that is a maximium of 96 carries a season. For a guy like Morris who ran the ball 335 carries that still means he would have carried the ball 240 times out of something other than the read option. So tell me again how he got all his yards out of the read option........

#203 teeray

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:04 PM

No they didn't. You are confusing a formation like the pistol formation with the read option which is a play. They did not run the read option all that much. And when they did run the pistol he handed off the ball not pitched it which is what you do around the end on the read option play. The read option as you know is based on what the DE does and they were doing more straight hand offs to the back and play action not holding the ball and waiting to run or pitch. Did they run it 6 or 7 times?? yes, was that all day?? No.


That is not what I saw at all and I watched the game twice to watch what they were doing. I hope you would think more of me than being confused that just because they were lined up in a pistol formation they were running a read option play.

However, what it looked like to me watching it is that Atlanta was trying to do the exact same thing they had success with against Seattle and that was making sure that the DE was staying on the edge with the QB and forcing the run back to the inside for the DTs and LBs to try and clean up.

Therefore, Kap never kept the ball, and eventually as the ATL defense tired Gore started gashing them in the holes left by the DE staying with Kap. Also with Lamichael James they were running a sweep read option with Kap having the option to run up the middle and they were pulling a guard (I think) as a lead blocker for Kap, and that was exactly what they ran on James' TD run.

I think they ran it way more than 6-7 times.

#204 teeray

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:09 PM

Pitching is an an option play.....something totally different than the zone reads (read option) everyone is doing.


In P55's defense often time the handoff in a read option is referred to as the pitch by a coach even though that's not technically what it is.

#205 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:15 PM

SFs 1st, 3rd and 4th touchdowns were all read option plays.

They ran it much more than 3 or 4 additional times than those 3 TDs

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:23 PM

That is not what I saw at all and I watched the game twice to watch what they were doing. I hope you would think more of me than being confused that just because they were lined up in a pistol formation they were running a read option play.

However, what it looked like to me watching it is that Atlanta was trying to do the exact same thing they had success with against Seattle and that was making sure that the DE was staying on the edge with the QB and forcing the run back to the inside for the DTs and LBs to try and clean up.

Therefore, Kap never kept the ball, and eventually as the ATL defense tired Gore started gashing them in the holes left by the DE staying with Kap. Also with Lamichael James they were running a sweep read option with Kap having the option to run up the middle and they were pulling a guard as a lead blocker for Kap, and that was exactly what they ran on James' TD run.

I think they ran it way more than 6-7 times.


this...

You can go to NFL.com and watch highlights. On Frank Gores 5 highlight runs 4 are read options. That doesn't account for his none highlight plays, the pass plays out of a zone read and the ones to the other RB.

#207 panthers55

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:05 PM

SF ran the read option much more than 6 times against Atl. They easily ran it that many times on a single drive.

They kept handing the ball off over and over to the RB in the read option bc of the DE play....still a read option. Atl forced that...and paid for it. The DEs were playing contain and obviously doing it....let them be gashed by RBs as CK could easily call the RBs number. QB doesn't have to run for it to be the read option play.

Pitching is an an option play.....something totally different than the zone reads (read option) everyone is doing.

Actually a pitch can be run out of a double or triple option. What many folks confuse is what we did with Stewart which was actually a zone read dive play run out of a double option pistol formation. A double or triple option is defined by how many running options are in the backfield. But they are not something totally different. And there are different options within a read option like a dive, slant or sweep option. The action can go with the blocking or against the blocking scheme.
A quarterback who runs the read option can run it as a dive play, slant play or as a pitch. Many times the read option dive is run out of the double option in the pistol formation where the read option pitch is run out of the triple option but it can be run out of the double. The reason it isn't run out of the double option often is because the dive play freezes the linebackers. Without it, the linebacker can shut it down easily.

For a better understanding on what we do in the read option, here is a good article.

http://www.grantland...ne-read-package

And if you are really bored, here is a series of article synopses with links to the whole article talking about all the various options and how to defend them.

http://smartfootball.com/tag/zone-read


The problem is that people use the term read option or zone read as if it is a specific play and it really is a process of keying your option off a specific defender which can be the backside DE, the front side DE, or a DT.

#208 panthers55

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:18 PM

That is not what I saw at all and I watched the game twice to watch what they were doing. I hope you would think more of me than being confused that just because they were lined up in a pistol formation they were running a read option play.

However, what it looked like to me watching it is that Atlanta was trying to do the exact same thing they had success with against Seattle and that was making sure that the DE was staying on the edge with the QB and forcing the run back to the inside for the DTs and LBs to try and clean up.

Therefore, Kap never kept the ball, and eventually as the ATL defense tired Gore started gashing them in the holes left by the DE staying with Kap. Also with Lamichael James they were running a sweep read option with Kap having the option to run up the middle and they were pulling a guard (I think) as a lead blocker for Kap, and that was exactly what they ran on James' TD run.

I think they ran it way more than 6-7 times.


I didn't keep count of the exact number but I think folks assume they run nothing but read option plays out of the pistol and most time they don't run the read option more than 25% of running plays. I think that you are right that the DEs were staying with Kap and expecting the linebackers or strong safety to come up and take the running back. For whatever reason, that didn't happen and the running back just waltzed into the endzone. Given that Atlanta didn't stop it, they may have very well run it more than they normally do much like they did against Green Bay. Still Gore averaged right at 4 yards a carry against Atlanta which was less than they gave up all season at 4.8.

I doubt that Baltimore is as easily to run on.

#209 panthers55

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:31 PM

How was the read option not all that successful? Late in the game Atl was abused by it....they where so focused on not letting CK run they were gashed by the RB. DEs playing contain allowed big holes....SF took advantage

Again Gore had 90 yards on 21 carries which was 4.2 yards per carry which is below what Atlanta surrendered all year long at 4.8 yards per carry and less than what Gore averaged all year at 4.7 yard per carry. His longest carry of the game was 11 yards and James was 15 yards. The fact that those runs occurred in the 3rd and fourth quarter made them look spectacular. Being abusing it what Williams did to New Orleans.

#210 teeray

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:33 PM

Actually a pitch can be run out of a double or triple option. What many folks confuse is what we did with Stewart which was actually a zone read dive play run out of a double option pistol formation. A double or triple option is defined by how many running backs are in the backfield (1 or 2). But they are not something totally different. And there are different options within a read option like a dive, slant or sweep option. The action can go with the blocking or against the blocking scheme.
A quarterback who runs the read option can run it as a dive play, slant play or as a pitch. Many times the read option dive is run out of the double option in the pistol formation where the read option pitch is run out of the triple option but it can be run out of the double. The reason it isn't run out of the double option often is because the dive play freezes the linebackers. Without it, the linebacker can shut it down easily.

For a better understanding on what we do in the read option, here is a good article.

http://www.grantland...ne-read-package

And if you are really bored, here is a series of article synopses with links to the whole article talking about all the various options and how to defend them.

http://smartfootball.com/tag/zone-read


The problem is that people use the term read option or zone read as if it is a specific play and it really is a process of keying your option off a specific defender which can be the backside DE, the front side DE, or a DT.


I haven't read your links yet and maybe they explain it better, but as I understand it, a double or triple option is not defined by how many RBs are in the backfield, it is defined by the actions that take place after the snap. You can run a double option with 3 running backs in the backfield (QB power type play where QB reads with FB and if he keeps then follows behind the FB with or runs outside with the HB as lead blockers) or a triple option with only one running back in the backfield (if the slot guy comes in motion for a sweep option and the QB reads the DE and keeps with a pitch guy outside). What defines a triple option is basically what it says, the amount of options that are a part of the play. In the older days a triple option would typically be run from a wishbone (or T) formations or the flexbone formation. The options would be the FB dive where you read the DE much like in the read option that you see today, the second option would be for the QB to keep the ball, and the third option is to pitch to the outside RB running with you to the outside.

For example, we ran some triple option. When we lined up with Stewart beside Cam and D-WIll behind him, Cam would put the ball in Stewart's stomach and read the DE, if the DE collapsed Cam would keep the ball and go outside with D-Will running with him, then Cam had his next read which was to keep the ball if the defense stays outside or pitch it to D-Will if they collapse on Cam.

But everything else you say is how I understand it as well.


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