35 replies to this topic

[SCP]

Let's be honest for a minute. Nothing about the way this team is run right now would make an outside observer think they were doing their best to put a consistent quality product on the field. It may hurt to admit it, but that's where we are.

Bingo. The point of this thread was to look at game day decisions. We have not addressed the bettering of game day decision making. We will likely see poo like the Bears and Falcons game happen again.

[panthers55]

So the premise of this thread is that the more coaches you have, the better you do and more years you have been in the league regardless of what you have done or your previous record, the better game decisions you make...........

Waits for huddlers with nothing else to do to do an analysis and see if this has legs...................

[MHS831]

If you want the positive spin on all this, here goes:
This is what amazes me:

• Marty Hurney spends millions re-signing the "core" from a 2-14 team (2010). While doing so, he ignores needs at some positions and loads the garage at others.
• Marty misses on several high draft picks over the past 5 years: Otah, E. Brown, Clausen, Armanti, McClain, Fua, S. Martin, etc. while explaining that we are "building through the draft"
• Marty ignores key positions and we are forced to play low-end players at them (CB, DT, WR, RG)
• Because Marty overpays for everyone else, we go bargain basement at FS with a special teamer from Baltimore named NAKAMURA. Marty overpays for him.
• Because Marty has not drafted a CB in the first or second (or brought in a good free agent) at CB since 2006 (if you count Richard Marshall), we start JOSH NORMAN, a 4.6 40 guy from Coastal Carolina who talks trash as he gets burned regularly.
• Because we have not drafted a WR above the third round (exculding USC busts Colbert and Jarrett) ever, our #1 WR is 33-year old, 5-9 slot converted to Flanker.

In 2012, We won 7 games. Three games were in the bag and slipped away due to poor decision-making (Atlanta in Atlanta, Chicago, and Tampa Bay in Charlotte). All 3 of these games were lost by exploiting weaknesses Marty Hurney created. This team could have VERY EASILY been 10-6. If we finished 10-6, we would have been talking about how we BLEW games vs. Tampa Bay in Florida, Dallas, and Seattle--and Kansas City. In other words, this team was flirting with a 10 to13-win season. This team that was 2-8 at one point.

The issue was personnel as much as anything. We all wanted to blame Rivera for the loss in Chicago. The reason he played soft? Norman, his starting CB, was too slow to play press coverage. He cannot recover, which would give up the deep ball. They were in a spread formation, which meant help was not available. Rivera had no Gamble to put on Marshall. Cutler had been off, so he hoped the Bears would make a mistake.

I guess what I am saying is this: The problem was the players on the field. Rivera had to make decisions with what he had. It is like a NASCAR driver using salvage parts and the fans expecting a win. Sure Rivera could have been better, but did you see the game Billechick called? He is considered the best coach since Lombardi. He simply has better players. Without Brady, Billechick is on his fourth or fifth job right now.

If we have another draft like we did last year (hats off to marty) and a few players finish maturing and the light comes on (Silatolu, Fua, Adams, Gettis) I see this team being much improved. Rivera is now scared and hungry.

MORE GOOD NEWS: We were winning with players like Kearse (NT), Dockery (CB), Thomas (CB), Byers ©, Austin (RG), and Campbell (S). Did we find some gems? I think we did in all cases.

If Gettlemen addresses needs on the OL, DT, WR, and CB to start with, this team will be dangerous in 2013. Do not underestimate the way they played for RR after the being eliminated during Halloween week.

This is not to say that Rivera did not make mistakes, it is to say, however, that Hurney's ineptitude handcuffed Rivera in a lot of ways. OK, haters, have at me. Tell me about the impending doom of the franchise and how this team sucks because Rivera is an idiot. I just wanted you to look beneath the surface. As a former high school coach, I know that there is a difference between what you need to do and what you can do, based on players.

[MHS831]

So the premise of this thread is that the more coaches you have, the better you do and more years you have been in the league regardless of what you have done or your previous record, the better game decisions you make...........

Waits for huddlers with nothing else to do to do an analysis and see if this has legs...................

The one thing we know: Each team gets 11 players on the field. I think the Bengals show that the number of coaches is not as important as one might think. They have done fairly well with marginal personnel.

Let's face it: If your QB is solid and gets hot, you win, even if you do not have a special teams field goal/extra point holder coach.

[top dawg]

The problem with Rivera was really not the Xs and Os, as he has stated, it was his lack of experience as an HC (i.e., management), and not realizing the scope and depth of his job before it was seemingly too late for the Panthers to make a mark in 2012.

[Third Degree]

This is not to say that Rivera did not make mistakes, it is to say, however, that Hurney's ineptitude handcuffed Rivera in a lot of ways. OK, haters, have at me. Tell me about the impending doom of the franchise and how this team sucks because Rivera is an idiot. I just wanted you to look beneath the surface. As a former high school coach, I know that there is a difference between what you need to do and what you can do, based on players.

Makes sense, but there's no way to defend some of the awful decisions Rivera has made in the past year.

[R0CKnR0LLA]

And by the way, just looking at the NFC South, the Bucs have 20 coaches, Atlanta has 19, New Orleans will have 18 once they hire their DC, and we'll have 14 once we hire an offensive QC specialist. Outside the NFCS, some other notable teams are:

San Fran - 21
Ravens - 20
Pats - 16
Broncos - 19
Cowboys - 16
Giants - 18 plus 1 open position
Seattle - 24
Packers - 21

This is perhaps more troubling than years of experience. It could be worse though. The Bengals have 9. Nonetheless, we are toward the bottom of the league in the size of our staff.

Let's be honest for a minute. Nothing about the way this team is run right now would make an outside observer think they were doing their best to put a consistent quality product on the field. It may hurt to admit it, but that's where we are.

Same thing with the front office. Last I heard our pro scouting "department" consists of ONE guy.

[Marguide]

I think the Bengals show that the number of coaches is not as important as one might think. They have done fairly well with marginal personnel.

Let's face it: If your QB is solid and gets hot, you win, even if you do not have a special teams field goal/extra point holder coach.

I don't know about you, but the Bengals organization is not one we should be copying in my opinion. Over the last 40+ years, they have a winning % of .442.

Sure, they've had a few good years here and there, but the organization is widely viewed as one of the worst run in the NFL by just about every outside observer. Is being like the Bengals good enough?

[MHS831]

Makes sense, but there's no way to defend some of the awful decisions Rivera has made in the past year.

Yes, Like Bellichick vs the Colts a few years ago, and even this year in the loss vs. baltimore. I think he gets a pass because he has a talented team that override some of his mistakes.

I wanted Rivera gone like everyone else. I guess that I am looking for a postive perspective going into 2013. Heck, in my job, I was not as good in years 1 and 2 as I am now.

[Brooklyn Bully]

In 2012, We won 7 games. Three games were in the bag and slipped away due to poor decision-making (Atlanta in Atlanta, Chicago, and Tampa Bay in Charlotte). All 3 of these games were lost by exploiting weaknesses Marty Hurney created. This team could have VERY EASILY been 10-6. If we finished 10-6, we would have been talking about how we BLEW games vs. Tampa Bay in Florida, Dallas, and Seattle--and Kansas City. In other words, this team was flirting with a 10 to13-win season. This team that was 2-8 at one point.

I agree with what you said about Hurney, but we as a board need to stop saying the above. EVERY team in the league who won or lost a close game can say what you've said. Teams we beat this season by a close score can say that if they did this, or that, differently, they could've beat us. Could we have beaten the Falcons? Sure! Could the Saints have beaten us? YEP. This whole argument is a wash.

[MHS831]

I don't know about you, but the Bengals organization is not one we should be copying in my opinion. Over the last 40+ years, they have a winning % of .442.

Sure, they've had a few good years here and there, but the organization is widely viewed as one of the worst run in the NFL by just about every outside observer. Is being like the Bengals good enough?

I agree, but I also think the Bengals' problems are in the ownership/front office, which trickles down to only having 9 coaches. Honestly, that is unbelievable. However, if they can experience success with 9 while a team with 23 coaches goes 6-10, how crucial are the coaches? There are many more factors that determine success.... that was my point.

I would never suggest that we follow their lead as an organization.

[SCP]

So the premise of this thread is that the more coaches you have, the better you do and more years you have been in the league regardless of what you have done or your previous record, the better game decisions you make...........

Waits for huddlers with nothing else to do to do an analysis and see if this has legs...................

The premise of the thread is that we have a bunch of noobs at the helm and failed to add anybody to assist Rivera with decisions on Sunday.

[Floppin]

Bingo. The point of this thread was to look at game day decisions. We have not addressed the bettering of game day decision making. We will likely see poo like the Bears and Falcons game happen again.

It's important not to overlook the value that Skipper will provide in this regard. He was Fox's assistant Head Coach and will provide invaluable game management experience to the staff and for Rivera.

[Floppin]

The premise of the thread is that we have a bunch of noobs at the helm and failed to add anybody to assist Rivera with decisions on Sunday.

See above.

[SCP]

If you want the positive spin on all this, here goes:
This is what amazes me:

• Marty Hurney spends millions re-signing the "core" from a 2-14 team (2010). While doing so, he ignores needs at some positions and loads the garage at others.
• Marty misses on several high draft picks over the past 5 years: Otah, E. Brown, Clausen, Armanti, McClain, Fua, S. Martin, etc. while explaining that we are "building through the draft"
• Marty ignores key positions and we are forced to play low-end players at them (CB, DT, WR, RG)
• Because Marty overpays for everyone else, we go bargain basement at FS with a special teamer from Baltimore named NAKAMURA. Marty overpays for him.
• Because Marty has not drafted a CB in the first or second (or brought in a good free agent) at CB since 2006 (if you count Richard Marshall), we start JOSH NORMAN, a 4.6 40 guy from Coastal Carolina who talks trash as he gets burned regularly.
• Because we have not drafted a WR above the third round (exculding USC busts Colbert and Jarrett) ever, our #1 WR is 33-year old, 5-9 slot converted to Flanker.

In 2012, We won 7 games. Three games were in the bag and slipped away due to poor decision-making (Atlanta in Atlanta, Chicago, and Tampa Bay in Charlotte). All 3 of these games were lost by exploiting weaknesses Marty Hurney created. This team could have VERY EASILY been 10-6. If we finished 10-6, we would have been talking about how we BLEW games vs. Tampa Bay in Florida, Dallas, and Seattle--and Kansas City. In other words, this team was flirting with a 10 to13-win season. This team that was 2-8 at one point.

The issue was personnel as much as anything. We all wanted to blame Rivera for the loss in Chicago. The reason he played soft? Norman, his starting CB, was too slow to play press coverage. He cannot recover, which would give up the deep ball. They were in a spread formation, which meant help was not available. Rivera had no Gamble to put on Marshall. Cutler had been off, so he hoped the Bears would make a mistake.

I guess what I am saying is this: The problem was the players on the field. Rivera had to make decisions with what he had. It is like a NASCAR driver using salvage parts and the fans expecting a win. Sure Rivera could have been better, but did you see the game Billechick called? He is considered the best coach since Lombardi. He simply has better players. Without Brady, Billechick is on his fourth or fifth job right now.

If we have another draft like we did last year (hats off to marty) and a few players finish maturing and the light comes on (Silatolu, Fua, Adams, Gettis) I see this team being much improved. Rivera is now scared and hungry.

MORE GOOD NEWS: We were winning with players like Kearse (NT), Dockery (CB), Thomas (CB), Byers ©, Austin (RG), and Campbell (S). Did we find some gems? I think we did in all cases.

If Gettlemen addresses needs on the OL, DT, WR, and CB to start with, this team will be dangerous in 2013. Do not underestimate the way they played for RR after the being eliminated during Halloween week.

This is not to say that Rivera did not make mistakes, it is to say, however, that Hurney's ineptitude handcuffed Rivera in a lot of ways. OK, haters, have at me. Tell me about the impending doom of the franchise and how this team sucks because Rivera is an idiot. I just wanted you to look beneath the surface. As a former high school coach, I know that there is a difference between what you need to do and what you can do, based on players.

All good points. If you don't have the Jimmy's and the Joe's it really doesn't matter about the X's and O's.