Jump to content


- - - - -

Is there an agenda behind the anti dual threat, hybrid or read option QBs


  • Please log in to reply
66 replies to this topic

#46 Guest_BlueBoy_*

Guest_BlueBoy_*
  • Guests

Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:55 PM

The NFL as an organization from the front office to the team offices to the coaches to the players to the fans are the most conservative areas of football known to man.

Innovation in football starts from the lower levels (college, sometimes even high school) and works its way UP the chain with the heaviest resistance to that innovation coming from the NFL.

Its just a fact of football life.

Then if that's the case the NFL hasn't been allowing it's best talent on the field but rather tradition. That's why every sports have it's Michael Jordan, Pele, Gretzky, Serena, Babe Ruth while the NFL just have debates every year of who was the greatest.

Maybe the best player is an all around player that can run and throw but because of the NFL exclusivity that player never existed. We're now just seeing a glimpse of possibility with the likes of Cam & kaepernick.

Imagine this, what if Adrian Peterson were a gifted passer as well. The possibility.

#47 Guest_BlueBoy_*

Guest_BlueBoy_*
  • Guests

Posted 27 January 2013 - 10:13 PM

Out of interest why has Luck been lumped as an unathletic 'pocket passer'?

Is it because he's white? Check out his Combine numbers then shut the fug up.

Well if someone is 7 foot tall and work at McDonald's he is just a McDonald worker, not a center for the NY Knicks. That's the point I'm arguing. The idea of forcing players not to use their natural talent for the sake of being called pocket passers. Luck can easily run the read option and add an extra dimension to his team but because he is white they think it's below him. And we all know once he use the read option his license of being compared to Payton will be revoked and nobody would want that. Right!?

But I have the feeling, at some point in Luck's career when the option game really starts dominating the league someone will incorporate it in his game. No reason not to. The age of throwing the ball away when no one's open down field with a wide open lane is approaching it's end. QBs will not get away with leaving so many first downs on the field.

#48 Mr. Scot

Mr. Scot

    Football Historian

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,792 posts
  • LocationSC

Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:34 AM

Out of interest why has Luck been lumped as an unathletic 'pocket passer'?

Is it because he's white? Check out his Combine numbers then shut the fug up.


Yeah. It's pretty silly.

#49 Mr. Scot

Mr. Scot

    Football Historian

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,792 posts
  • LocationSC

Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:43 AM

Well if someone is 7 foot tall and work at McDonald's he is just a McDonald worker, not a center for the NY Knicks. That's the point I'm arguing. The idea of forcing players not to use their natural talent for the sake of being called pocket passers. Luck can easily run the read option and add an extra dimension to his team but because he is white they think it's below him. And we all know once he use the read option his license of being compared to Payton will be revoked and nobody would want that. Right!?

But I have the feeling, at some point in Luck's career when the option game really starts dominating the league someone will incorporate it in his game. No reason not to. The age of throwing the ball away when no one's open down field with a wide open lane is approaching it's end. QBs will not get away with leaving so many first downs on the field.


Oh good grief. Who the heck is "forcing someone not to use their natural talents"? That's one of the silliest things I've read on on here in a while :rolleyes:

And again we have the same "game is changing" stuff that's people have been saying for years. What's especially goofy about it is people act like mobile quarterbacks are something new. Those of us old enough to remember guys like Fran Tarkenton know better.

No doubt someone will say "but the quarterbacks now are better athletes than those back then". Indeed they are. So are the linebackers, defensive tackles, tight ends, offensive linemen and pretty much every other position on the field.

The only actual change I've seen is the game is evolving more and more toward passing, so the ability to be an effective passer is more important than ever.

If you can also run, that's great, but rely on it too much and you risk shortening your career. If you're a great runner but a lousy passer, you'll be lucky to have much of a career at all.

#50 Guest_BlueBoy_*

Guest_BlueBoy_*
  • Guests

Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:43 AM

i fully agree with your first two paragraphs but that last one your ingoring history on, dual threat QBs including micheal Vick have been for the most part complete busts until now its the reason why people are saying dual threat QBs won't work without an improved passing game, NFL defenses are just too good for any QB to think they can just run on them, it's a major injury waiting to happen like Vick, Culpepper and now RG3 you have to have a passing game to excel in the NFL

Vick never got injured down field. All his injuries came by bad OL play in the back field. Culpepper was not a bust. He was an elite thrower of the football. Who else? What other dual threat QBs in this long NFL history who were bust?

Well, in this past 5 years alone I would say every single pocket passer were total bust. From #1 picks like palmer, linart, quinn to weedens, grossmans, clausens. Seriously, any successful pocket passers the last 5 years. I can't name one. While you're referring to 10 year vets like culpepper & vick. Is that all you got?

#51 Mr. Scot

Mr. Scot

    Football Historian

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,792 posts
  • LocationSC

Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:53 AM

Vick never got injured down field. All his injuries came by bad OL play in the back field. Culpepper was not a bust. He was an elite thrower of the football. Who else? What other dual threat QBs in this long NFL history who were bust?

Well, in this past 5 years alone I would say every single pocket passer were total bust. From #1 picks like palmer, linart, quinn to weedens, grossmans, clausens. Seriously, any successful pocket passers the last 5 years. I can't name one. While you're referring to 10 year vets like culpepper & vick. Is that all you got?


Actually Vick's OL were pretty good the year Ray Lewis broke his leg. But then regardless of whether his line was good or bad, Vick's finished...what? Two seasons without missing a game? Lousy example to use as a dual threat since he was never that great a passer.

And Culpepper? Seriously? Culpepper became utter crap the moment he lost Randy Moss as a receiver. He was the worst quarterback in the league well before Chris Gamble took his knee out.

As to the last five years, there have been precious few great QBs of any stripe that have come out, but the notion that only the pocket passers have been busts is dumb. This year's guys are too young to judge just yet, but guys like Andy Dalton, Christian Ponder and Matt Stafford are all pretty decent. Heck, even T J Yates had good moments. Oh, and there's also this guy who's playing in the Super Bowl next week.. Fellow by the name of Flacco. He was drafted in 2008.

Yeesh :rolleyes:

Do yourself a favor and give up on this idea that only black QBs and read option guys are dual threats. Steve Young was one of the best ever and great at both areas. For that matter, very few pocket passers are all that immobile (Dan Marino was an exception, not a norm). They just aren't great running threats. And yet somehow, guys like Brees, Manning and Brady still manage some level of success even without that talent. And let's not forget a guy like Aaron Rodgers, someone who's perfectly capable of running but doesn't need to because he's extremely effective as a passer.

Bottom Line: Passing is still the skill quarterbacks need most to succeed. Running is a nice thing to have, but not necessary to become a winner.

And that's not likely to change anytime soon.

#52 BBQ&Beer

BBQ&Beer

    The good actor

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,965 posts
  • LocationMissouri

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:06 AM

And again we have the same "game is changing" stuff that's people have been saying for years. What's especially goofy about it is people act like mobile quarterbacks are something new. Those of us old enough to remember guys like Fran Tarkenton know better.

No doubt someone will say "but the quarterbacks now are better athletes than those back then". Indeed they are. So are the linebackers, defensive tackles, tight ends, offensive linemen and pretty much every other position on the field.

The only actual change I've seen is the game is evolving more and more toward passing, so the ability to be an effective passer is more important than ever.


Exactly, though i would add that the main things i see changing the game are advances in training, nutrition, & health care.

#53 Mr. Scot

Mr. Scot

    Football Historian

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,792 posts
  • LocationSC

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:12 AM

Exactly, though i would add that the main things i see changing the game are advances in training, nutrition, & health care.


Pretty much.

It's funny but I never hear the media talk about "the game changing" when there's a mobile white QB like Aaron Rodgers or Steve Young. Nor do I hear the people championing mobile QBs talk much about The Golden Calf of Bristol.

Like I said, you still have to be able to pass. If you can also run, great, but it's not required. And race means nothing. What determines your success is your skill, not your skin. But you'll still have people pushing that agenda for their own reasons.

I suspect the next guy to learn that you have to be an effective passer to succeed in the NFL will be Collin Klein.

#54 Guest_BlueBoy_*

Guest_BlueBoy_*
  • Guests

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:29 AM

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

RG3 is not a legitimate pocket passer at this stage of his career. And if he played on the Panthers in 2012, he'd be worse than Cam, with the Panthers maybe winning 3-5 games. He had a very good Rookie year. And I'm glad for him. But please don't flatter/overrate him like that. Cousins was beating him out in training camp, so/till they catered the offense to him. Despite RG3's lofty QB rating, he was the beneficiary of a gimmick offense (one that you talk about so much, but curiously didn't realize that RG3 benefited from so much) and a strong run game. That's ironic.

RG3 was a one read/one zone, quick, short throw QB, where most of his plays were ran off of Zone reads, play actions, bootlegs, rolls out, misdirection and a lot of motion out of the Pistol. RG3 didn't have to read defenses the way they used him (or Cam did/does), and he was usually making short yardage throws (many behind the line of scrimmage), or to wide open receivers over the middle or down field. The Skins/Shanahan's zone blocking scheme (i.e. their run game), provided RG3, the pistol and their seemingly limitless misdirections, a multitude of ways to keep defenses off guard. Because of this, RG3 many times threw to receivers (for TD's or large gains, even on short yardage passing) who were wide open, with out a defender seemingly within 15 yards. Bad example!

Regarding Cam's accuracy, and other great QB's: You keep forgetting, that Peyton Manning had about 28 interceptions his Rookie season, and looked how he worked out? And Aaron Rogers?He didn't start for years, and sat behind Farve. How bad would he had been, if he started with the Panthers right out of college? Drew Brees was unimpressive his first several years in the league as well. And didn't find true success, till he went to New Orleans. Get my drift? So let's see how Cam progresses next year, especially after his stellar end of his 2012?

Based off what I've seen, I have no doubt, that Cam can be an excellent, accurate, NFL passer. Even now, he makes some great throws into tight windows (for example, that I've never seen RG3 and most NFL QB's make). And Greg Cossell (of NFL films), agrees and continually raves about Cam as a drop back/pocket QB and his future. Cam just needs more consistency. The tools are already there. He's not going to be Dan Marino overnight. And Remember, he's playing better now at this stage, than most of the very good and elite QB's did when they first came into the league. Let RG3, Kaepernick and Wilson (as far as the "hot" new guys), play on the Panthers last year, and see how well they would have done. More importantly Cam wants to be great, and should put the work in. So I don't understand why you want to limit his possibilities so young.

Any QB can look good with a excellent Offensive line. And Cam, frankly didn't have one last year, to add to the list. So let's cool off on what you're saying (especially when you were so dead wrong about RG3) regarding Cam's possibilities. .

Note: I very rarely EVER see Cam throw wobbly balls or non spirals. What Panther games are you watching?


I'm not arguing that RG3 is a great reader of offense, I don't care about that. I also don't care about his QB rating. I just go by the eye test and how the ball come out of his hand on whatever throws he makes. Rodgers is the same way as well. The way the ball come out of their hand is very tight and on a rope. A little bit like the way Vick throws the ball, kind of like a flick and always on a spiral. Whatever throws you ask those guys to make they'll make it. Cam is more like the guy who needs his fundamental down tight to be consistent on his throw. I follow college football quite a lot. Man, I tell you, RG3 can hum that ball in every direction. From short to intermediate to long. He is just a gifted passer.

And I never say Cam throws wobbles because he doesn't. It's just like any field, there are people who are just born gifted and it doesn't mean others can't learn the same skill. Maybe it's the throwing motion, it seems effortless to some. You know how some point guard make dribbling the basketball seem effortless even if they may not be the best player on the court? Kind of like that. Normally those guys don't rely much on fundamentals.

And another thing, you can't fault a player for executing the game plan well. I also watch the Redskins offense, those throws in the middle of the field leave little room for error. Any overthrow or tip ball is an interception. Admittedly, he seems to always put the ball where only his receivers can catch it. Forget about the rivalry, just go on youtube and watch the guy throw the football. It is a thing of beauty. Nothing wrong with appreciating other players talent.

#55 Guest_BlueBoy_*

Guest_BlueBoy_*
  • Guests

Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:06 AM

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

RG3 is not a legitimate pocket passer at this stage of his career. And if he played on the Panthers in 2012, he'd be worse than Cam, with the Panthers maybe winning 3-5 games. He had a very good Rookie year. And I'm glad for him. But please don't flatter/overrate him like that. Cousins was beating him out in training camp, so/till they catered the offense to him. Despite RG3's lofty QB rating, he was the beneficiary of a gimmick offense (one that you talk about so much, but curiously didn't realize that RG3 benefited from so much) and a strong run game. That's ironic.

RG3 was a one read/one zone, quick, short throw QB, where most of his plays were ran off of Zone reads, play actions, bootlegs, rolls out, misdirection and a lot of motion out of the Pistol. RG3 didn't have to read defenses the way they used him (or Cam did/does), and he was usually making short yardage throws (many behind the line of scrimmage), or to wide open receivers over the middle or down field. The Skins/Shanahan's zone blocking scheme (i.e. their run game), provided RG3, the pistol and their seemingly limitless misdirections, a multitude of ways to keep defenses off guard. Because of this, RG3 many times threw to receivers (for TD's or large gains, even on short yardage passing) who were wide open, with out a defender seemingly within 15 yards. Bad example!

Regarding Cam's accuracy, and other great QB's: You keep forgetting, that Peyton Manning had about 28 interceptions his Rookie season, and looked how he worked out? And Aaron Rogers?He didn't start for years, and sat behind Farve. How bad would he had been, if he started with the Panthers right out of college? Drew Brees was unimpressive his first several years in the league as well. And didn't find true success, till he went to New Orleans. Get my drift? So let's see how Cam progresses next year, especially after his stellar end of his 2012?

Based off what I've seen, I have no doubt, that Cam can be an excellent, accurate, NFL passer. Even now, he makes some great throws into tight windows (for example, that I've never seen RG3 and most NFL QB's make). And Greg Cossell (of NFL films), agrees and continually raves about Cam as a drop back/pocket QB and his future. Cam just needs more consistency. The tools are already there. He's not going to be Dan Marino overnight. And Remember, he's playing better now at this stage, than most of the very good and elite QB's did when they first came into the league. Let RG3, Kaepernick and Wilson (as far as the "hot" new guys), play on the Panthers last year, and see how well they would have done. More importantly Cam wants to be great, and should put the work in. So I don't understand why you want to limit his possibilities so young.

Any QB can look good with a excellent Offensive line. And Cam, frankly didn't have one last year, to add to the list. So let's cool off on what you're saying (especially when you were so dead wrong about RG3) regarding Cam's possibilities. .

Note: I very rarely EVER see Cam throw wobbly balls or non spirals. What Panther games are you watching?

Also, the advantage RG3 had over Cam is that he played in the spread offense throwing the ball 40-50 times a game. From short to intermediate to long. While Cam play the zone read throwing the ball 15-20 times. That's why you notice Cam seems to struggle on short passes thus requiring more times to adapt. RG3 on the other hand can adapt to any offense because he spent 3 years in college throwing the ball 40 times a game. That might be the difference. Meaning RG3 was more polished. Cam only played 1 year in college. That's incredible how he was able to be the number 1 pick.

You and I both know Kousins wasn't beating RG3 in training. They picked Cousins so they could get their first round pick back on a future trade. Thus the organization leaked out meaningless info to put his name out there as some big time player. Andy reid did the same thing with colb.

So, you're telling me shanahan left RG3 playing hurt on one Leg in a playoffs game while a healthy two-legged big time star who was beating RG3 in camp sit in the sideline and watch? Let's not be crazy here. If that story were true, we'll find out how many teams show interest in Kousins in free agency where it matters. I doubt Kousins wants to be a back up the rest of his career.

Nothing wrong with giving credit where it's due. Game recognize game!

#56 Guest_BlueBoy_*

Guest_BlueBoy_*
  • Guests

Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:39 AM

Actually Vick's OL were pretty good the year Ray Lewis broke his leg. But then regardless of whether his line was good or bad, Vick's finished...what? Two seasons without missing a game? Lousy example to use as a dual threat since he was never that great a passer.

And Culpepper? Seriously? Culpepper became utter crap the moment he lost Randy Moss as a receiver. He was the worst quarterback in the league well before Chris Gamble took his knee out.

As to the last five years, there have been precious few great QBs of any stripe that have come out, but the notion that only the pocket passers have been busts is dumb. This year's guys are too young to judge just yet, but guys like Andy Dalton, Christian Ponder and Matt Stafford are all pretty decent. Heck, even T J Yates had good moments. Oh, and there's also this guy who's playing in the Super Bowl next week.. Fellow by the name of Flacco. He was drafted in 2008.

Yeesh :rolleyes:

Do yourself a favor and give up on this idea that only black QBs and read option guys are dual threats. Steve Young was one of the best ever and great at both areas. For that matter, very few pocket passers are all that immobile (Dan Marino was an exception, not a norm). They just aren't great running threats. And yet somehow, guys like Brees, Manning and Brady still manage some level of success even without that talent. And let's not forget a guy like Aaron Rodgers, someone who's perfectly capable of running but doesn't need to because he's extremely effective as a passer.

Bottom Line: Passing is still the skill quarterbacks need most to succeed. Running is a nice thing to have, but not necessary to become a winner.

And that's not likely to change anytime soon.

Now the throw the ball up in the air and let torey & and boldin come down with it Flacco is a great player now because he is in the superbowl. Is that the standard now? So if you're a QB in a team with a great defense that makes the superbowl makes you a great player? The guy was on the brink of not being resigned until the Ravens keep the high power NE offense to 13 points. I hope that applies to everyone and not certain pocket passer type. Because if that's the case Kaepernick should sign his name on the dotted line as being great too. Let me guess, he has too little experience? So players can't be gifted overachiever?

Bottom line is, you only name 2 dual threat QBs in the last 15 years who didn't succeed while every pocket passers in the last 5 years are just busts occupying a roster spot instead of difference makers.

Did you notice that there are a bottom 15 to 20 QBs who has never sniffed or even on the cusp of ever even making the playoffs and they're all pocket passers with pocket passer as their back up with pocket passers as their 3rd string. Those teams are in eternal mediocrity with their QBs. Fitzpatrick, Colb, Lindly, palmer, linart, cassell, locker, gabbert, weeden, stafford(?), bradford(?), etc.

I don't wanna hear anybody complaining about the only 4 dual threat QBs in the league that are all in the hunt for the playoffs. Don't wanna hear it. There are enough colbs, lindlys, cassells, lockers, etc. to worry about. Those guys are only playing because their organization is stuck with them and those dual threat QBs are hard to come by.

#57 Guest_BlueBoy_*

Guest_BlueBoy_*
  • Guests

Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:02 AM

Pretty much.

It's funny but I never hear the media talk about "the game changing" when there's a mobile white QB like Aaron Rodgers or Steve Young. Nor do I hear the people championing mobile QBs talk much about The Golden Calf of Bristol.

Like I said, you still have to be able to pass. If you can also run, great, but it's not required. And race means nothing. What determines your success is your skill, not your skin. But you'll still have people pushing that agenda for their own reasons.

I suspect the next guy to learn that you have to be an effective passer to succeed in the NFL will be Collin Klein.

You lose all credibility once you mention The Golden Calf of Bristol & Collin Klein. I don't think this thread is about QBs that can't throw. I don't think anyone here brought up any QB that didn't know how to throw. I think you're lost in translation.

Klein will not be drafted as a QB. He was already asked to change his position to TE. Most of the QBs mentioned so far were either high 1st rounders or teams traded down specifically to get them. Heck, The Golden Calf of Bristol was not even fast at all. He was as fast as a lot of pocket passers. The Golden Calf of Bristol ran a 4.71. He wasn't gonna outrun anybody.

Aaron Rodgers isn't a ball of fire on the open field either. He ran a 4.77

#58 tiger7_88

tiger7_88

    old skool SWAG

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,749 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:40 AM

Those of you above that are of the opinion that what Cam, Kaep, RG3, and (to a lesser extent) Wilson are doing is the same thing that all the other QBs are doing, past and present?

Ummmm... OK.

Wow.

#59 FootballMaestro

FootballMaestro

    SENIOR HUDDLER

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,742 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:45 AM

Also, the advantage RG3 had over Cam is that he played in the spread offense throwing the ball 40-50 times a game. From short to intermediate to long. While Cam play the zone read throwing the ball 15-20 times. That's why you notice Cam seems to struggle on short passes thus requiring more times to adapt. RG3 on the other hand can adapt to any offense because he spent 3 years in college throwing the ball 40 times a game. That might be the difference. Meaning RG3 was more polished. Cam only played 1 year in college. That's incredible how he was able to be the number 1 pick.

You and I both know Kousins wasn't beating RG3 in training. They picked Cousins so they could get their first round pick back on a future trade. Thus the organization leaked out meaningless info to put his name out there as some big time player. Andy reid did the same thing with colb.

So, you're telling me shanahan left RG3 playing hurt on one Leg in a playoffs game while a healthy two-legged big time star who was beating RG3 in camp sit in the sideline and watch? Let's not be crazy here. If that story were true, we'll find out how many teams show interest in Kousins in free agency where it matters. I doubt Kousins wants to be a back up the rest of his career.

Nothing wrong with giving credit where it's due. Game recognize game!


I've watched RG3 play. He doesn't read NFL defenses much. That's not what he's asked to do.

Most of Washington's offense is based off misdirection and play action. He's like a WCO QB, that play actions, bootlegs and Read Options most of the time. Yes, give him credit for his timing and accuracy. Absolutely! However, you could say the same about Alex Smith. So please don't say RG3 makes a lot of tough throws, cause he doesn't.

I"ve seen more tough throws in 1 Cam game sometimes, than I've seen RG3 make during stretches of games or the entire season, it seems.

And Griffin cannot throw the ball on a rope down field. He's needs loft to do that. His deep ball is okay. So I'm not sure what you're saying. Like I said, I've seen Cam throw the ball into extreme tight windows on a rope, that RG3 doesn't. He usually throws to wide open receivers. During Cam's rookie season, he even lofted some brilliant throws (like against Wash in 2011 for a TD) into super tight coverage.

Cousin's was reported to be better during camp. And RG3 was having trouble. This was widely reported or speculated during the pre-season. The reason why RG3 started, is the same reason why he played on one leg in the playoffs when he shouldn't have. The Redskins have a great investment in him; RG3's a run threat, and the DC fans loved him (even before he played his first game). They created a monster.

I'm not telling you RG3 doesn't have some attributes. Of course he does. But to compare him to Aaron Rogers or Drew Brees at this stage, is almost laughable, based off of what we seen (or haven't ) so far. SMH

Like I said earlier: Put RG3 on this years Panthers, with that offensive line, and he has a horrible year or doesn't finish the season. And I don't want Cam to run a majority gimmick offense, the way RG3 does either. I want Cam to be a pocket QB first, then run when he has to or a few designed plays a game.

When RG3 can play like that; get back to me! Cause my EYE Test Tells Me, that RG3 is not yet an NFL Drop back/Pocket, multi-read Quarterback at this stage.

#60 BigSyke

BigSyke

    I Know you Watching me but I'm watching you too Playa...

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,012 posts
  • LocationFLORIDA

Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:24 AM

i think it was cam first game against arizona when he read the defense and changed the play....after that he hit smith on that 70 yard td. cam also can be the most accuarte qb in the game then miss on some passes. its not whether cam can do the the things of an elite qb...its whether he can be CONSISTENT all through the year which makes him an elite qb.

here are some pinpoint throws by newton..check these times on the video- 2:10,3;05,5:07,5:34,5:56,8:06,9:22





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Contact Us: info@carolinahuddle.com - IP Content Design by Joshua Tree / TitansReport.