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Post in this thread if you want to read and contribute to a thoughtful (if exhaustive) treatise on race and leadership in football


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#31 Hawk

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 12:03 PM

I think lots of people share your opinion BlueBoy...I just can't see the entire NFL sharing it...especially when winning is so important...breaking the mold would be worth it.

#32 Hawk

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 12:08 PM

thanks for the clarification Philly.

#33 KendrickPanther

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 12:36 PM

jesus Philly...if I was in your bar I would have been helping myself to the top shelf waiting for you to type all that out man!! Good post though...and ya...I want to be involved in a conversation that doesn't jump automatically to being accused of being racist.

I live in Canada. Compared to most US places, we don't really have very many black people in these parts. Lots of Asians, Indians..both kinds, lots of people from all over the world to be honest as that's what Canada is all about...not aboot, about! I don't consider myself a racist even in the slightest bit. Just wanted to get that out of the way first.

We all joke about Asians being the great mathmeticians of the world. Maybe it's in their DNA or their education...damned if I know. What's my point...I wasn't sure if I had to have one....no, I remember years ago a sportscaster getting in major crap because he said blacks were dominating in the running events at the Olympics I think it was because as he put it, their muscles were developed differently and they had a different muscle in their leg that made them run faster. Do I believe this...no, probably not, but it could be I suppose.

I guess my question, which won't be well liked by some, is that...I am wondering if there is a chance that certain races are just wired differently, that their minds are just programmed to do different things. Being a coach makes you think of things differently than being a fisherman or a nuclear physicist etc etc etc. damned if I know.

tldr...I know...I'm going back to sleep



Personally, I believe we are all born a blank slate (the Tabula Rasa) and our life experience write our personality. I think of genetics as soft spots in that slate, spots we have a predisposition to falter or succeed. If you were to take the majority of athletes- Black, White, Asian, etc....and insert them into the Manning household growing up they would come out more articulate and well mannered. Put them in that house from the day they are born. I read an article once that said poor African American children hear 5 million fewer words spoken by the time they reach Kindergarten. That is our children learning communication skills right there. That isn't genetics, it's societal.

#34 Guest_BlueBoy_*

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:09 PM

I think lots of people share your opinion BlueBoy...I just can't see the entire NFL sharing it...especially when winning is so important...breaking the mold would be worth it.

I don't think the NFL is culpable at all. In fact, the NFL is a very tolerant organization. The problem is with the journalists, to satiate the demand of the majority they tend stoop to such level of imbecility and intolerant childishness.

People assume the reason the quarterback positions were mostly white is because of their so-called intangibles. But in reality, as Kurt Warner stated, it's because the QB position is the least athletic position on the field. Athletic players in the past use look up to the Jerry Rices, Simpsons, Bo, Moss, etc. so they grew to think that QBs were too soft and nonathletic. Most people don't realize that QBs are just the coaches' messengers, more like teacher's pet. QB and leadership is just a persona.

Some people actually think those 10+ year vets with wives and kids and all their dignity to uphold are gonna listen to a rookie like Luck proclaiming he is their leader. Rrright! And remember, a QB and WR, RB, TE, etc all have the same status. The QB can't fire other players, so why would they take his crap. You think those vets need to be led to play football? Even the notion is funny. "Just call the goddamn play so you can look good at the press conference", that summarize all a QB is.

You think Steve Smith needs to be led to catch the damn ball? Heck, Terrell Owens ate QBs for lunch. Boy, the public is stupid!

Speaking of Luck, I think he is the least eloquent of all the young QBs and the least abilities and we'll see that in a couple more years.

#35 pstall

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:48 PM

it will be liberating for most of you guys when you reach 40. the things you use to sweat will be so comical.

we all grow up or grow old. we all learn our lessons and the ones we don't, we stay in class until we do.

#36 MadHatter

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:03 PM

Personally, I believe we are all born a blank slate (the Tabula Rasa) and our life experience write our personality. I think of genetics as soft spots in that slate, spots we have a predisposition to falter or succeed. If you were to take the majority of athletes- Black, White, Asian, etc....and insert them into the Manning household growing up they would come out more articulate and well mannered. Put them in that house from the day they are born. I read an article once that said poor African American children hear 5 million fewer words spoken by the time they reach Kindergarten. That is our children learning communication skills right there. That isn't genetics, it's societal.


I think you are very accurate on your statements.

There are genetic differences in us all. Some have a predisposition to be a better athlete and I Di believe that done are predisposed to be leaders. However, I also agree that the majority if the reason is societal. Your experiences build who you are likely to become.

There are always exceptions to these rules, but they are exactly that....exceptions and not the rule.

#37 Guest_BlueBoy_*

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:12 PM

Personally, I believe we are all born a blank slate (the Tabula Rasa) and our life experience write our personality. I think of genetics as soft spots in that slate, spots we have a predisposition to falter or succeed. If you were to take the majority of athletes- Black, White, Asian, etc....and insert them into the Manning household growing up they would come out more articulate and well mannered. Put them in that house from the day they are born. I read an article once that said poor African American children hear 5 million fewer words spoken by the time they reach Kindergarten. That is our children learning communication skills right there. That isn't genetics, it's societal.

Those debates are great. But what I seem to notice in all those debate is that people of African decent seem to be the center of all those 'debates'. What is so 'interesting' about Africans that people want to 'debate' about. Why not Mexicans or Asians? Because Africans are a mere 'minority' compared to all those other combined minorities. Also, why aren't Asians or Mexicans asking those questions or begging to be 'different'? Many Africans would beg to ask, why not analyze yourself and stop worrying about them? If you think you're so different, then enjoy a prosperous 'different' existence. And I repeat, how would you feel like if someone is always pointing their dirty, filthy fingers at you.

Now, regarding the debate of whether we're are all the same. Are we all the 'same'? I don't know the answer to that, but from what I have learned so far from our science is that we've all been affected by different environmental factors dating back to tens of thousands of years. We know Europeans and Asians lived in arctic environments while Africans lived mostly in tropical environments. Most scientist believe that had a strong effect on our physical difference. Scientist also believed that non-Africans went through a hybridization process with other non-'human' species. Again, did that have any effect on our physical differences? And to all those who begs to be 'different', well the answer is right in front of you. It seems to be the case. DNA research is in its infancy so we will find out more specifics later on.

The even tougher question, are you we satisfied with the level of 'difference'? In the lottery of being 'different', who is the winner and who is the loser? Interesting, eh!

Regarding the article stating poor African children hear 5 million less words by the time they reach kindergarden, well, that's bullpoo, there aren't 5 millions words in the English language. That's actually funny, I wanna meet a kindergarden kid who knows 200 words. Again, packing poo up to sell to the common idiots.


How many words are there in the English language?


"The Second Edition of the 20-volume Oxford English Dictionary contains full entries for 171,476 words in current use, and 47,156 obsolete words. To this may be added around 9,500 derivative words included as subentries. Over half of these words are nouns, about a quarter adjectives, and about a seventh verbs; the rest is made up of exclamations, conjunctions, prepositions, suffixes, etc. And these figures don't take account of entries with senses for different word classes (such as noun and adjective)."

#38 TheRumGone

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:13 PM

I have a friend who is mixed race. Irish and African. We are pretty close and he told me one time, with several shots of whiskey mind you, that it was pretty rough growing up cause he felt he had to act and communicate a certain way around certain people. He felt he had to act more black around black people and more white around white people for both races to like him. I found this really interesting and sad.

#39 Mr. Scot

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:30 PM

Nice post, Phil. One criticism: "Treatise" is spelled with an 'e'.

For me, I won't go with anthropology. I'll go with anecdote.

I've mentioned before that my father was a rabid racist. He was also never around when I was a kid. Not because he was a deadbeat; just the opposite, he was always working. However, the upshot of that is that my dad wasn't that large an influence on me as a kid. The two people who were, my mom and my pastor, had not a racist bone in their bodies.

Now I came from a mostly white small town. The first time I actually met a black person, they were a pee wee football teammate. They also happened to be female. Honestly, I didn't like her, but not because she was black. It was because she was a wench.

A year later, I got a new black teammate, her little brother Antony. He and I became friends and remained both friends and football teammates all the way through high school. He even rode back and forth with me to practice, and we had a lot of fun on those rides.

Others came along later. A family moved from Africa - not sure which country - with two daughters who were around my age (how one journeys from Africa to West Virginia is a topic I've pondered often since). Later still, another family with a daughter moved in and she started dating a friend of mine. Another buddy made a big deal about it being okay. I pointed out to him that nobody said it wasn't, so he was arguing a point no one was making. Little did I know that would be good practice for internet message boards :unsure:

Still more friends came along when I went to college, including a close friend named Daniel who is, to this day, one of the smartest people I've ever met in person. My college dating life included some flirtations with girls of several ethnic backgrounds as well.

All of the above was a source of great disappointment to my father :(

Bottom line for me though: What I came to learn was that there were a lot more differences in communication stemming from where and how people grew up than there was their race. I also learned to judge people as individuals, not based on whatever ethnic group they came from. Every race has its good, its bad, its geniuses, its morons, its hateful, and its kindhearted.

Likewise, individual football players you judge on their abilities, for good or bad, not their race.

The one criticism I have, and have had for a while, is that college football tends to do a poor job of training athletic QBs (both black and white, but mostly black) to be the kind of passers they need to be at the pro level. So is there an imbalance in the pros? if so, it starts at the college level.

You want to fix the problems? Fix them at the source.

#40 King Taharqa

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:43 PM

all those those qbs have white girlfriends.....is that the problem with cam or no???


It helps make you look more "conformed" in some peoples eyes.

#41 Mr. Scot

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:49 PM

all those those qbs have white girlfriends.....is that the problem with cam or no???


Only if you're Rob Parker.

#42 teeray

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:13 PM

The one criticism I have, and have had for a while, is that college football tends to do a poor job of training athletic QBs (both black and white, but mostly black) to be the kind of passers they need to be at the pro level. So is there an imbalance in the pros? if so, it starts at the college level.

You want to fix the problems? Fix them at the source.



I think that might have been true as recently as 8-10 years ago. But if you talk to anyone working with the elite high school QBs these days it is changing, and rapidly.

You are not seeing as much of these guys who can only do one or the other. More and more young QB are guys like Johnny Manziel, Cam Newton, Kap, RG3, etc. These young QBs are quickly evolving into true dual threat QBs who run 4.3-4.6 40's and can throw the ball on a rope.

This will very quickly become the norm, or at the very least more prevalent. There will always be guys like Manning and Brady, but the pool of players that are strictly pocket passers are drying up very quickly and athletic QBs are quickly evolving into good to great passers.

This is a revolution that isn't going away anytime soon. NFL is always behind the curve in evolution of football because of old preconceived notions. But when it becomes apparent that something is working at a very high level, they adjust very quickly.

Two years ago no one ran the read option and pistol in the NFL. Already 4 teams have now adopted it as a major part of their offense. Expect that number to grow over the next 5-10 years.

And you know what, the NFL is better and more entertaining because of it.

#43 footballisasport

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:13 PM

Your thread is well taken. I look at it this way. Say you guys were handsome as ever and well built, had the job of your dream and made big bucks. Evenmore is, no matter how much folks try to tear you down, things simply work out in our favor. That to me is how the media sees Cam and find any reason to keep attacking him. Their passive aggressive attitude cannot be over-looked

Let's be real, no one will ever say that RG speaks more articulately than Luck and it's a sign that RG is a better leader. And that' because there seem to be a unspoken belief that Luck is more intelligent and is set apart. Guess what, RG does speak more articulately than Luck, and those in the media slamming Cam for any dumb ish knows that. But, u know they will NEVER point that out. Also, if there is an audience that will buy any negative thing the media says about Cam,they will keep looking for anything about Cam they can pick apart to sell to them.

BTW, beingthe media's idea of a "team leader" is very over-rated, IMO, and has nothing to do with helping your team get to the SB, just ask Flacco. That should be your only concern when it comes to Cam. Are you doing everything you can to help him get the Panthers to the SB?

#44 Mr. Scot

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:20 PM

I think that might have been true as recently as 8-10 years ago. But if you talk to anyone working with the elite high school QBs these days it is changing, and rapidly.

You are not seeing as much of these guys who can only do one or the other. More and more young QB are guys like Johnny Manziel, Cam Newton, Kap, RG3, etc. These young QBs are quickly evolving into true dual threat QBs who run 4.3-4.6 40's and can throw the ball on a rope.

This will very quickly become the norm, or at the very least more prevalent. There will always be guys like Manning and Brady, but the pool of players that are strictly pocket passers are drying up very quickly and athletic QBs are quickly evolving into good to great passers.

This is a revolution that isn't going away anytime soon. NFL is always behind the curve in evolution of football because of old preconceived notions. But when it becomes apparent that something is working at a very high level, they adjust very quickly.

Two years ago no one ran the read option and pistol in the NFL. Already 4 teams have now adopted it as a major part of their offense. Expect that number to grow over the next 5-10 years.

And you know what, the NFL is better and more entertaining because of it.


I'm not so sure.

At the college level, you can win games with one super athlete at quarterback and a team of half-decent guys surrounding him. And because of that, there are still a lot of coaches subscribing to that formula to the detriment of their QBs future employment.

The only two coaches I knew of who spent serious effort on trying to teach their athletic QBs to be just as good at passing as they were at running (Bill Stewart of WVU and Jim Tressel of Ohio State) are no longer coaching in the college ranks. If there's anyone else who's taken up that mantle, I couldn't tell you who it is.

Maybe someone else can.

#45 Lumps

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:28 PM

Just thought I'd add and this could be elaborated on:
ethnicity= social/biological
race= man made, synonymous with color

There can be never ending number of ethnicities but very limited number of race.

Only thing I sort of see differentley is that things like ebonics are unique to ethnicity and culture for purpose of identity. That may be true but I find it as an age thing mainly. I don't see it used really at all with older people signifying to me its a 'to be cool' thing rather than really being something of culture/ethnicity, it's most defienetley both but seems to me a lot of people 'gow out of it' whether they are articulate with words or not. Not just ebonics either, any kind of slang really, that's my experience.


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