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Post in this thread if you want to read and contribute to a thoughtful (if exhaustive) treatise on race and leadership in football


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#46 teeray

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:03 PM

I'm not so sure.

At the college level, you can win games with one super athlete at quarterback and a team of half-decent guys surrounding him. And because of that, there are still a lot of coaches subscribing to that formula to the detriment of their QBs future employment.

The only two coaches I knew of who spent serious effort on trying to teach their athletic QBs to be just as good at passing as they were at running (Bill Stewart of WVU and Jim Tressel of Ohio State) are no longer coaching in the college ranks. If there's anyone else who's taken up that mantle, I couldn't tell you who it is.

Maybe someone else can.


I think that almost every coach tries to develop their QB into better passers. Not all of the QBs succeed in that endeavor and you will see coaches scheme around the QBs shortcomings.

NFL QBs, whether they are athletic or not, are rare. There is 119 teams and maybe 6 or 7 QBs get drafted a year. Most QBs aren't very good NFL prospects

My point was, that high school QBs that are coming through the pipeline are more and more athletic and can now throw the ball very well. More and more athletic QBs are developing at a younger and younger age. They are starting to look more and more like RG3 and Cam. There is also less and less of the traditional straight drop back pocket passer because so few teams are running an offense that caters to those QBs.

The pool of QBs that are dual threat QBs is growing and growing. The pool of QBs that are just drop back passers is shrinking and shrinking.

As far as coaches that try to teach QBs to pass just as well as run. Gus Malzhan, Larry Fedora, Dave Doeren, Kevin Sumlin (he is actually a pass first, and if you can run we will adjust type coach), and many more that run these types of offenses, want balance on offense. But sometimes players can't provide that balance so they adjust to their QB.

But I think all of them try to develop their QBs as passers as well as runners.

#47 PhillyB

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:05 PM

Nice post, Phil. One criticism: "Treatise" is spelled with an 'e'.


fixed, good catch... i have no idea how i missed that

#48 fjblair

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:51 PM

I use too much shaving cream. I've been shaving for many many years and I've still not got it figured out! I wash a lot of shaving cream down the drain because I squirt more than I need into my hand.



No doubt. Yet the can still lasts for months. Perplexing.

#49 CarolinaCoolin

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:55 PM

I'm white and from my point of view I don't see these guys as being more white friendly then the others. I like cam because of his talent. I like Russell Wilson because of his talent. I like kaepernick because of his talent. I like any player because of his talent level. I feel if you go into a "white group" watching football and ask if they like him or not you'll find that if he is on the team they like they'll love him regardless of being white friendly. Ask them about a player on a rival team they will not like him because he plays for that team. I feel like this whole white friendly non sense is a myth. When we get past seeing someone race first is when we get past all of this.

#50 KendrickPanther

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:05 PM

5 Million more words spoken means the child hearing a word. Wealthier and better educated parents tend to spend more time reading and speaking to their children. The child does not need to hear 5 million unique words. Simply hear the English language spoken repeatedly and process that in their brains. Children learn language through repetition.

#51 Mr. Scot

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:07 PM

I think that almost every coach tries to develop their QB into better passers. Not all of the QBs succeed in that endeavor and you will see coaches scheme around the QBs shortcomings.

NFL QBs, whether they are athletic or not, are rare. There is 119 teams and maybe 6 or 7 QBs get drafted a year. Most QBs aren't very good NFL prospects

My point was, that high school QBs that are coming through the pipeline are more and more athletic and can now throw the ball very well. More and more athletic QBs are developing at a younger and younger age. They are starting to look more and more like RG3 and Cam. There is also less and less of the traditional straight drop back pocket passer because so few teams are running an offense that caters to those QBs.

The pool of QBs that are dual threat QBs is growing and growing. The pool of QBs that are just drop back passers is shrinking and shrinking.

As far as coaches that try to teach QBs to pass just as well as run. Gus Malzhan, Larry Fedora, Dave Doeren, Kevin Sumlin (he is actually a pass first, and if you can run we will adjust type coach), and many more that run these types of offenses, want balance on offense. But sometimes players can't provide that balance so they adjust to their QB.

But I think all of them try to develop their QBs as passers as well as runners.


Accepting that they try, how many are good at it?

It's very true that developing a starting NFL quarterback is a very difficult thing. There are only 32 of them in the world of thousands of potentials, and a load of the guys currently holding the job have been around for a while.

The college game these days isn't producing as many great passers as it used to. It can be argued that some of that may be due to the emphasis on running (and I'd posit that it is) but I'd also say a good portion of it is that there aren't as many coaches at the college level these days who have the combo of patience and knowledge to produce those guys as there used to be.

Frankly, I think the insistence that guys start as soon as possible isn't doing them any favors either. I'm sure some would say there are still good passers coming out of that, but I'd suggest that they could be great rather than good with proper time.

This, of course, is one of those debates that won't likely be resolved.

#52 Originalman

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:49 PM

Just thought I'd add and this could be elaborated on:
ethnicity= social/biological
race= man made, synonymous with color

There can be never ending number of ethnicities but very limited number of race.

Only thing I sort of see differentley is that things like ebonics are unique to ethnicity and culture for purpose of identity. That may be true but I find it as an age thing mainly. I don't see it used really at all with older people signifying to me its a 'to be cool' thing rather than really being something of culture/ethnicity, it's most defienetley both but seems to me a lot of people 'gow out of it' whether they are articulate with words or not. Not just ebonics either, any kind of slang really, that's my experience.


Sorry but you are mistaken. Ebonics is used by the young and old. Do you realize that Ebonics was created from southern dialect and African languages that were brought over by slaves? It was used so the slave masters had no way to tell what the slaves were saying. The slave masters didn't want the slaves to speak in there African tongue so they took English words and mixed them with African words and phrases.

Also similar methods were done in other countries. Brazilain African slaves used a form of African martial arts training in african dance form so that the slave masters did not know that they were actually preparing for combat in case they escaped from the plantation.

Ebonics is just a form of communication that blacks have created over hundreds of years and is a form of identity since so much of their identity was taken away from them during slavery (IE religion, way of life and customs for example). Trust Ebonics is no fad.

#53 Originalman

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:02 AM

I think that almost every coach tries to develop their QB into better passers. Not all of the QBs succeed in that endeavor and you will see coaches scheme around the QBs shortcomings.

NFL QBs, whether they are athletic or not, are rare. There is 119 teams and maybe 6 or 7 QBs get drafted a year. Most QBs aren't very good NFL prospects

My point was, that high school QBs that are coming through the pipeline are more and more athletic and can now throw the ball very well. More and more athletic QBs are developing at a younger and younger age. They are starting to look more and more like RG3 and Cam. There is also less and less of the traditional straight drop back pocket passer because so few teams are running an offense that caters to those QBs.

The pool of QBs that are dual threat QBs is growing and growing. The pool of QBs that are just drop back passers is shrinking and shrinking.

As far as coaches that try to teach QBs to pass just as well as run. Gus Malzhan, Larry Fedora, Dave Doeren, Kevin Sumlin (he is actually a pass first, and if you can run we will adjust type coach), and many more that run these types of offenses, want balance on offense. But sometimes players can't provide that balance so they adjust to their QB.

But I think all of them try to develop their QBs as passers as well as runners.


True it is just evolution. Coaches are finally realizing that if the QB is touching the ball every play on offense you might as well let the best athlete play QB. This is starting at an early age so the kids who are athletes are also getting a chance to play QB early on and get good QB coaching. Also with football being so pass happy now the emphasis is on mobility because your QB is stepping back to pass 60 and 70 percent of the time.

Why are QBS in the CFL more prone to be mobile.....because it is a passing league. The more you pass the more times defensive linemen can pin their ears back and rush the passer. Football has turned into basketball on a football field. You can no longer punish WR and defenses can no longer be physical. So this is an environment that has created the need for a mobile QB. Also with the one back sets and empty back fields the QB has become an extension of the run game.

It's good for such a conservative sport (except Canadian football which has been ahead of the curve) to finally make a leap to the late 20 century....lol!!

Like I have always told people the NFL or football in general is not the NBA or basketball. It is far more conservative and less experimental.


#54 footballisasport

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:58 AM

I was thinking about this tonight as I watched Russel Wilson give an interview on NFL Network. He is so "white friendly" it's no wonder the media heaps praise upon him. He sells. RG3 does as well. From a purely physical standpoint Cam is clearly superior but his image isn't as refined. I think it's a shame because Cam spends so much time and money giving back to the community but his lack of "whiteness" does detract from him in the mainstream media.

But Cam's communication trouble isn't just a racial issue, its generational. You can tell by the way he gives interviews that he grew up watching ESPN and sometimes he comes off the wrong way. Like when he apologized to Jerome Boger and he says "I'm going public". It made me think of a guy that grew up watching Cop dramas and gets a job as a Police Officer.

And Cam does have maturity issues. However I think the point of this thread is that maturity and refined Caucasian communication skills are not key to success in the NFL. In fact many NFL players reached amazing heights with no social skills while engaging in criminal behavior. Hall of Famers with all kinds of trouble in their lives found success in the NFL.


Is that why Rob Parker was fired from ESPN because he was picking on a black kid that was "whites" in tone and appearance. I still find it funny that no one finds anything wrong with how Luck looks and sounds but they do with Cam.

On the topic of immaturity; funny how Matt Ryan can yell after a game, "get the fug off my field" and folks interprete that as nothing more than a passionate player expressing himself after a game. Cam sits with a towel at the end of the bench with other depressed looking players of his team and all kinds of BS "immaturity issues" is read into his behavior. Tom Brady runs after a Ref and yells at him...nothing. Cam tried to get a defender off his leg and while getting up barely bumped the Ref. He is out of control and another sign of his "immaturity issues."

In all honesty, the treatment of Cam by the media isn't much different than the treament of certain blacks back in the day. That mindset has always been dictated to blacks, in a passive agrressive way, as to how they should behave. If you were too stronger, too dark, or "threatening" to the whites in those days, you was used as an example of what is wrong with blacks. That person was then either mocked, harrassed, ostracized, or even worst, killed, as a way of driving home the subtle message of who is in control. It's hard to believe how much that attitude of superiority is still alive and well in the NFL.

Maybe the problem isn't so much Cam, but the blame shifting and passive aggressive behavior our media uses against these players when they don't get their way.

#55 Guest_BlueBoy_*

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:23 AM

5 Million more words spoken means the child hearing a word. Wealthier and better educated parents tend to spend more time reading and speaking to their children. The child does not need to hear 5 million unique words. Simply hear the English language spoken repeatedly and process that in their brains. Children learn language through repetition.

Normally those wealthy or middle class parents, like the poor parents, as weird as it may seem, don't have the time to spend reading and speaking with their children. Because, even though they have different income they both still have to work to maintain that standard of living. So, those children either spend their time at a day care, with a nanny, neighbor next door, or with grandma.

It just boils down to family values and culture. What does this or that family value the most. That's all, folks. You could be as poor as can be but if your family values education you can find yourself at Harvard in the same class room with those 5million extra words people.

Plus, when you're comparing whites and blacks as far as levels of education is concerned, you have to understand that whites have a larger human resources than blacks. Meaning because of the much larger white population you will find a larger pool of educated white people to chose from. It's not because white children are hearing more words. On the ground level, I rarely meet a white person with a bachelors degree, being raised in Long Island and all. But in the corporate level most people do have a degree. So, from the human resource standpoint you can't compare a large population to another tiny population. The same way you can't say there are more educated Chinese than Taiwanese, a rather pointless statement because China has 1.2billion people while Taiwan has about 30 million. China probably produce 30 million university graduates in a year(over-exaggeration, of course). And I tell you, on the ground level in China you can meet a million people but never find one with a bachelors degree but the large cities you'll meet plenty.

Human resources, people. Not 5million more words. Large populations is what moves the world. Countries with large populations will always be ahead of the curve. If not in the present but in the future. If you follow world trend it's countries with very large populations that are achieving the most economic growth and it's not a coincidence.

All I am saying is, you can't compare the 2 million caucasians attaining bachelors degree per year to the 150 thousand African Americans attaining bachelors degree. Big population difference.

#56 thefuzz

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:10 AM

Fans, and people honestly, just like people who are like them. It's not a big deal, it's just the way it is.

The trick is to not let that feeling become more than what it is.

#57 Guest_BlueBoy_*

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:21 PM

There are more dumb, uneducated, can barely speak caucasian redneck & hillbillies in this country than there are black people in north America. White people just use their large numbers to put their best foot forward while those uneducated rednecks & hillbillies are in the background collecting food stamps to survive. Now imagine we decide one day to put our lenses on those those groups. In the meantime we're poking at super talented black athletes with college education & paying a bunch of taxes and contributing to the local economy. That's wrong. Just too many hypocrites in this country. Before you point the finger at Cam, ask yourself this, how much of a better orator and leader are you. Cam is awesome in my book. Not many better human being than him.

#58 xerxes

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:22 PM

I'm white and from my point of view I don't see these guys as being more white friendly then the others. I like cam because of his talent. I like Russell Wilson because of his talent. I like kaepernick because of his talent. I like any player because of his talent level. I feel if you go into a "white group" watching football and ask if they like him or not you'll find that if he is on the team they like they'll love him regardless of being white friendly. Ask them about a player on a rival team they will not like him because he plays for that team. I feel like this whole white friendly non sense is a myth. When we get past seeing someone race first is when we get past all of this.


I think this is a fairly common sentiment. Here's a counter argument that is better articulated than I could make it.

http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/6919.html

Race is a very loaded topic, and is difficult to summarize briefly. In my own experience, I have managed people from several different racial backgrounds, and I have never come up with a good way to have those conversations because everybody is an individual and approaches it differently.

One of my employees got extremely offended when I tried to ask whether our different races was affecting our ability to relate. At almost the same time, I had another conversation with an employee who did feel it was a problem. We had a long talk about it, and had a much stronger working relationship afterwards.

In short, people are complicated. I think you have to build a relationship and mutual respect with the individual. For a lot of people, race is a critical competent of who they are, so to ignore it is to disregard something vitally important to them. So personally I don't feel ignoring race is a solution.

#59 AppStatePanther

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:36 PM

It helps make you look more "conformed" in some peoples eyes.

LOL.


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