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Steve Smith knocks the read option...

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Posted

He's right, teams will spend this offense studying how to beat the read option and it won't be nearly as effective this coming season.

Good news for us is that Cam can thrive in a pro-style offense.

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If we were running it right there shouldn't be a pause and it shouldn't affect when the RB hits the hole. This is an offense that has to adjust always.

Here is how Chip Kelly explains it:

Edit: Welp I was going to copy from a clinic paper that Kelly had on his offense but i will have to paraphrase because for some reason this site wouldn't let me do it.

Basically, he said that the coach needs to know when the RB is hitting the hole. If he is hitting the hole too late, the coaches need to move the RB up. If he is hitting the hole too early, you move the RB back further. He said you don't adjust the speed of the play to get the timing right you change your alignment.

It was a little more complex than that, but that was the gist of it.

If there is an issue with how long it is taking a RB to get to the hole the offensive coordinator is supposed to adjust his and possibly the QB's alignment. Move them closer to the O-line.

This offense is so complex and simple at the same time. But it requires very detailed adjustments to how you line up in the backfield and a faster pace to make sure the assignments are correct and to see how the defense is going to defend it.

We were slow getting out of the huddle and were not able to audible. Those are the two most important factors of running that kind of offense and we did neither.

As far as adjusting alignment of the QB and RB I don't know if Chud did made changes in that regard or not.

Interesting. Still, I think we have the best chance to win by only running that offense 3-5 times a game. I think it better serves Cam in the present and future. But what you just said makes sense. Maybe Cam wasn't coached the right way how to run it. Even still don't wanna see it run very much.

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Gore had two big runs and CK had his touchdown run. The TD to Crabtree was off of play-action not the R.O.

I like CK. I think Cam and him will be the most dangerous in this R.O. Play because they are so big and so fast. I think as a pocket passer. I think Newton is a better passer. I noticed alot of 3/4 delivers from CK. Newton is more of an over the top thrower.

If you think that doing well after 30 minutes is acceptable. OK if you say so.

Since we will never know whether the lights made a difference. Most say it was a good reset for SF. I would have to admit it was. Baltimore's offense went 84 minutes without touching the ball. Nearly an hour and a half because of the lights.

You didn't see the difference before and after. Before the lights went out on SF it was 3rd and 13. Hardly SF kicking ass.

So we'll just leave it as we agree to disagree.

CK was OK, I wouldn't say great. He had about 20 minutes worth of highlights.

So, since there was no blackout in the falcons game, what's the excuse in SF coming back? What about the 9ers game against NE during the regular season? 22 points deficit with 2 quarters left is nothing. That's only 3 TD. One quick 3 and out you have a ball game. Come on!

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Posted

He's right, teams will spend this offense studying how to beat the read option and it won't be nearly as effective this coming season.

Good news for us is that Cam can thrive in a pro-style offense.

Well, they have 9 months to figure it out. Wish them luck though. Hopefully by next year I won't hear DCs normally need a good 5 years to figure out new offenses. Can't wait to laugh.

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Posted

He's right, teams will spend this offense studying how to beat the read option and it won't be nearly as effective this coming season.

Good news for us is that Cam can thrive in a pro-style offense.

People in college have been studying for 10 years now and still haven't come up with much.

But the truth is, as with any offense in the world, the key is balance and deception.

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The most important thing to me is we continue the threat of designed runs for Cam, whether it be through read option plays, conventional QB draws or whatever.

If it is a real threat on a given running play or play action fake, you effectively tie up one more defender than otherwise. If all we did was run out of I-form or traditional shotgun runs and never used Cam as the designed runner, we let the defense ignore him as a threat. That would be a big mistake imo.

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Posted

The RB shouldn't be standing with his feet nailed down. When the exchange takes place the RB should be 85% of top speed and then exploding through the hole. He isn't reading linebackers, he already knows where he needs to go. The RB is responsible for the exchange, the QB is in charge of the read. The RB is supposed to go straight to where his gap should be, but he also has the option to cutback to a better gap if it opens up and looks to be the better option. Something that RBs do in any zone blocking run scheme, whether it be under center or out of the shotgun or in the pistol.

The back is most certainly not going 85% of his speed, maybe that is the problem you're finding. Watch the tape and tell me Stew or D'Lo are ever going 85% at the point of hand off.

Also, again, the back's field is narrower because he has to stay closer to the middle of the field in case the QB takes it. So he cant adjust, he cant go faster. . . basically he's wearing lead weights until the QB removes them.

edit: the back doesnt know if he's blocking or running yet at the point of hand off. So, yes, he is reading the play and no he doesnt have a set gap to just run through then. That takes time for a brain to work out and it's about a billion times easier to plant a heel in the dirt and explode when the play is a definite hand off. See a guy breaking through a gap early? cut earlier and bounce to the outside. There's much less time to do that in an option and he has less speed AND is closer to the center of the field.

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The back is most certainly not going 85% of his speed, maybe that is the problem you're finding. Watch the tape and tell me Stew or D'Lo are ever going 85% at the point of hand off.

Also, again, the back's field is narrower because he has to stay closer to the middle of the field in case the QB takes it. So he cant adjust, he cant go faster. . . basically he's wearing lead weights until the QB removes them.

edit: the back doesnt know if he's blocking or running yet at the point of hand off. So, yes, he is reading the play and no he doesnt have a set gap to just run through then. That takes time for a brain to work out and it's about a billion times easier to plant a heel in the dirt and explode when the play is a definite hand off. See a guy breaking through a gap early? cut earlier and bounce to the outside. There's much less time to do that in an option and he has less speed AND is closer to the center of the field.

The 85% is what the coaches who actually run this offense say. You using the Panthers version is like watching William Hung to learn about singing. I have said all along the problem wasn't the read option, but how we tried to run it and how we executed it.

The RB is never blocking. He runs straight to his gap no matter whether he gets the ball or doesn't for deception purposes.

They are told that they are going to jam it into the A gap unless they see something better. So they are coached to run right at the butt of the frontside guard.

Here is the clever way the running backs coach for Oregon explains it to his players.

He tells them pretend like you are out on a Saturday night and you see a good looking girl. That girl is in the A gap and you are going for her. However, before you commit, scan the room and have a look at the girl over there to she if she looks even better.

The RB knows where he is going. He runs straight for the A gap but has to read to see if there is a better gap before he gets there. If there is he will cutback through that gap.

Even if the QB keeps it the RB has to sell the fact that he has the ball so the DE can crash down on him. So he is never a blocker.

And lastly, the RB is in charge of the exchange in the zone read. The QB is in charge of the read. So the RB shouldn't be looking at the defense at that point, he is focusing on the exchange. The QB is reading the defense, and it is up to him where the running play goes. Or more accurately, it is up to the defense which way the run goes.

And in case you didn't get the William Hung reference

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I'm a troll because I don't think an old hag should be complaining about our offensive system? OK, guy!

If I were you I'd take the troll label.

It's a better option than being dumb enough to talk about Steve Smith like that.

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The 85% is what the coaches who actually run this offense say. . . .

And in case you didn't get the William Hung reference

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#1 what people say isnt truth or fact. Watch tape then take an average. If you dont like how we run it check someone else's like you have, but be fair. Dont take the five fastest times its been perfectly executed as your data set.

#2 I dont give a fug what Chip Supergenius has to say about it or any other college coach even though I understand you're siting it because college is where its ran most and this guy is a proponent of that. The reason is because. . he doesnt coach the pros, Tee. I get the guy is badass, there's been plenty that have come n gone, he's got to prove it in the pros first.

Im not hear to convince you one way or another what should or should not be done as a solution. Im telling you, by fact, that a human being cannot be going as fast at a handoff in an option as he can taking three steps and meeting the QB downhill whos ready to slap it in the basket. Im also telling you that he is starting closer to the center of the field because the play has to have the ability to go both ways and if you lean too much to one way someone's gonna get killed when you run the back door route.

no pie for Hung, of course I got the reference, Kook. Here's the Wu Tang clan because I cant get that opening scene to "The Man with Iron Fists" out of my head. That should be just about as ambiguously appropriate.

Agree with everything. And i miss ODB.

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Posted

#1 what people say isnt truth or fact. Watch tape then take an average. If you dont like how we run it check someone else's like you have, but be fair. Dont take the five fastest times its been perfectly executed as your data set.

#2 I dont give a fug what Chip Supergenius has to say about it or any other college coach even though I understand you're siting it because college is where its ran most and this guy is a proponent of that. The reason is because. . he doesnt coach the pros, Tee. I get the guy is badass, there's been plenty that have come n gone, he's got to prove it in the pros first.

Im not hear to convince you one way or another what should or should not be done as a solution. Im telling you, by fact, that a human being cannot be going as fast at a handoff in an option as he can taking three steps and meeting the QB downhill whos ready to slap it in the basket. Im also telling you that he is starting closer to the center of the field because the play has to have the ability to go both ways and if you lean too much to one way someone's gonna get killed when you run the back door route.

no pie for Hung, of course I got the reference, Kook. Here's the Wu Tang clan because I cant get that opening scene to "The Man with Iron Fists" out of my head. That should be just about as ambiguously appropriate.

I just charted three of our games with a stopwatch. Surprisingly even for me, the RB was actually quicker to the line of scrimmage and through the hole on read option plays than he was with runs from under center.

When we ran the read option the RB got to the hole faster both in zone blocking plays and dive plays that when we ran similar blocking plays from under center.

Zone blocking read option plays averaged about 2.33 seconds to get through the hole.

Zone blocking run plays from under center averaged 2.51 seconds through the hole.

DIve read option plays took on average 1.40 seconds through the hole

Dive runs from under center on average 2.04 seconds through the hole

My methodology was to time each run play at a minimum three times to try and eliminate human error as much as possible. If there was a large discrepancy between times I would time it for a fourth time and possibly a fifth if the times until it seemed consistent. I also discarded unusual plays. For instance if Deangelo cut all the way to the backside, all of those instances happened on under center plays and all of them, obviously, had very large times and were not useful for what i was trying to determine. I took all of the times and averaged them and then compared like kind running plays from under center and in the read option.

My hypothesis was that there would be no discernible difference between the two. In fact what I discovered was that almost universally the read option plays were faster to the hole and the line of scrimmage than their like kind running plays from under center (i.e. zone blocking, power blocking, etc.)

I thought what you said was interesting so I tried to put it to the test to see if you were right. Honestly, I was surprised that the read option plays were actually faster than under center running plays. There was no evidence of it being slower to develop, or that it was effecting the RB speed to the hole.

Just food for thought.

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