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Everything you need to know about our cap, potential cuts and free agents.


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#106 stankowalski

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:25 PM

Nice job. Somebody has plenty of time on their hands it seems.

#107 Mage

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:11 PM

What you are describing above would be a definite violation of the cap. Not maybe. Definite.

If it was that easy to get around the cap, every club would be doing it.


That is exactly what I said, that it isn't allowed. Hence it not being against the salary cap.

#108 Mage

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:16 PM

yep. there's no way that would be allowed. huge violation. the team would get into a poo ton of trouble. you can not give players anything beyond what is stated in the contract.


I never said it would be allowed. I'm merely giving an example. The guy said paying for gas money affects the salary cap. It absolutely does not. Outside of the fact that no owner would bother to report that to the NFL, it doesn't go against the cap because it isn't in the contract.

What he was initial talking about was salary cap but that long article he posted was referring to team salary. Stuff like that affects that, I guess. But not salary cap.

I wasn't saying that was allowed. I was giving reasons as to why it isn't allowed. Anything paid to a player outside of the contract or special things like retirement and such do not go against the cap.

#109 stirs

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:37 PM

Is Stewarts contract equally as restrictive for us?

#110 Firefox

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:57 PM

That is all nice and all. But no, money paid outside of the contract agreed upon by the player and team does not go against the salary cap. Sure, you can count it as the players salary if you want. But it wouldn't go against the cap.

So, if Jerry Richardson paid Newton $3 million for a new house, it wouldn't go against the salary cap because it wasn't in the contract. It would just be Richardson paying his own money to Newton. If Jerry Jones paid $3 dollars to Romo to pay for gas, it would not go against the cap.

Which is why that isn't allowed or else every big market team would do that (pay more money than they are allowed) to pry players to them.

Though, re-reading your post, I hope you know I'm talking about the salary cap (which is what you said). Not a teams salary (how much the team is making). They aren't the same thing.


Well, your wrong again as usual. Perhaps you need to go read the CBA yourself. It doesn't copy & paste well.

What in the world are you talking about salary cap vs salary ? What do mean they are not the same thing? It's SALARY and it HAS A CAP.

The CBA gives the definition of salary, including that: "Salary means the compensation in money, property, investments, loans or anything else of value..."

Then you say "if Jerry Richardson paid Newton $3 million for a new house, it wouldn't go against the salary cap because it wasn't in the contract."

Well, the CBA just said salary includes property or anything else of value. Well, a new house is "property" and you even put a "value on it" .... $3 million according to you. So IF that happens it counts as "salary" and does indeed go against the "salary cap".

The CBA when finishing up what counts against the salary cap says "Any other Salary not listed above paid to players shall be included in Team Salary."

Surely your reading comprehension isn't as bad as you make it out to be. Why on earth would the CBA be talking about "salary" in the "salary cap" section if salary doesn't count against the cap ???

#111 Mage

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:22 AM

And you want to know the key thing you left out of all of that?

Salary, however, does not include benefits.


Also:

The "Team Salary" falls under the Salary Cap. Team salary includes the amount a team must pay its current or former players under their player contracts.


Key word, their contracts. If Richardson gave Newton money outside of his contract, it is not going to count against the salary cap. If every single dime given to a player affected the salary cap, why has the money Richardson gave Olsen for transportation to help his son, TJ, not affected our cap yet?

It was a benefit. Just like paying for gas would be a benefit. Just like Richardson paying for Newton's house would classify as benefits.

So no, I am not wrong. But if you'd like to continue this, go right ahead. However, you are being foolish to think Richardson buying Newton's house actually affects the football teams cap. It's a benefit. It isn't agreed upon in the contract. It doesn't affect the salary cap. Or again, as the example above, the money (how much it was) JR paid Olsen would have affected it. Which it quite obviously didn't, and quite clearly wouldn't.

#112 Firefox

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 09:59 AM

And you want to know the key thing you left out of all of that?



Also:



Key word, their contracts. If Richardson gave Newton money outside of his contract, it is not going to count against the salary cap. If every single dime given to a player affected the salary cap, why has the money Richardson gave Olsen for transportation to help his son, TJ, not affected our cap yet?

It was a benefit. Just like paying for gas would be a benefit. Just like Richardson paying for Newton's house would classify as benefits.

So no, I am not wrong. But if you'd like to continue this, go right ahead. However, you are being foolish to think Richardson buying Newton's house actually affects the football teams cap. It's a benefit. It isn't agreed upon in the contract. It doesn't affect the salary cap. Or again, as the example above, the money (how much it was) JR paid Olsen would have affected it. Which it quite obviously didn't, and quite clearly wouldn't.


If you would read CBA section 4(a) you would see it said "but not including Benefits". You would read the exact defination of "benefits" in Article 12, section 2. To summarize it's things like: Pension funding, group insurance, workers' comp., s.s. taxes, per diems, Gene Upshaw Health Account, "88 Benefit" (dementia), the Legacy Benefit, etc. When you say "It's a benefit. It isn't agreed upon in the contract." Do you actually believe these benefits aren't spelled out in the contract?

You would have that found other things "not in a player's contract" like drafted rookies salaries are included as of day of the draft (have they signed a contract that day ???), tenders, offer sheets (and it specifically says "until player is signed to a player contract"), grievances (you think the player is announcing his future grievance in his contract? LOL), and for about the 3rd time "Any other Salary not listed above paid to players shall be included in Team Salary".

You are just making up that money outside a contract doesn't count against the salary cap. I posted the NFL / NFLPA CBA saying it DOES. In fact it says "A player’s Salary shall also include any and all consideration received by the player or his Player Affiliate from a Club or Club Affiliate, even if such consideration is ostensibly paid to the player for services other than football playing services..."

So how 'bout you posting something to prove your point those monies don't count!

You're not worth any more of my time trying to explain it to you. Remember you are the guy saying rookies aren't included in the salary cap. Do you also not see that practice squad players are?

Have fun learning the rules of the league.

#113 Firefox

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 10:35 AM

Well, at least we aren't the only team in cap trouble....

Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer
10 Ravens account for $69M in 2013 cap space. And that doesn't acct for Flacco, Reed, Ellerbe, Kruger, Dickson, Pitta


Yeah, that's another one ($6.9 mil / player)

When Gettleman begins breaking down the numbers he'll find a Carolina team that has $63.25 million in salary cap space committed to six players — defensive end Charles Johnson ($13 million), Gross ($11.7 million), Gamble ($10.9 million), center Ryan Kalil ($9.95 million), Beason ($9.5 million), and Williams ($8.2 million).

($10.5 mil / player) - ouch !

Quarterback Cam Newton ($6 million), receiver Steve Smith ($5.75 million) and tight end Greg Olsen ($5.7 million) account for an additional $17.5 million in cap space.

So essentially two-thirds — or $80 million — of the team's salary cap is slated to go to nine players.

http://www.gastongaz...ary-cap-1.80085

#114 rayzor

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 10:43 AM

compensation of any kind has to be accounted for. JR flying Olsen's family up north for a medical emergency isn't something that people are going to make an issue of. paying for a players house would most definitely be something they pay attention to.

it's considered compensation and it most certainly would or should count against the salary cap. if it was something that skirted outside of it it could be reported to the league and that would seriously effect the team in big penalties.

#115 Firefox

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:24 AM

compensation of any kind has to be accounted for. JR flying Olsen's family up north for a medical emergency isn't something that people are going to make an issue of. paying for a players house would most definitely be something they pay attention to.

it's considered compensation and it most certainly would or should count against the salary cap. if it was something that skirted outside of it it could be reported to the league and that would seriously effect the team in big penalties.


Yeah, that is addressed like this:



ARTICLE 13 SALARY CAP ACCOUNTING RULES


(iv) Non-Cash Provisions.
(1) The fair market value of all non-cash provisions (e.g., automobiles, houses, insurance policies) shall be included in Team Salary during the year in which such provision is made. If the parties cannot agree on the fair market value of such provisions, such dispute will be submitted to the Impartial Arbitrator.

- from page 105

(5) Except as provided in Subsections 6(e)(iv)(2)–(4) above, and Article 7 (concerning Rookie Orientation Programs), if any money or tangible item of value is provided by any Club to any player (or his affiliate) not pursuant to this Agreement or a Player Contract, the value of the money or item shall immediately be included in Salary and the Team Salary of the Club making such provision.
- from page 106

#116 Marguide

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:46 AM

When Gettleman begins breaking down the numbers he'll find a Carolina team that has $63.25 million in salary cap space committed to six players — defensive end Charles Johnson ($13 million), Gross ($11.7 million), Gamble ($10.9 million), center Ryan Kalil ($9.95 million), Beason ($9.5 million), and Williams ($8.2 million).


It's even worse when you realize that only 2 of those players really earned that kind of money last year. While we got at least a few good games out of DWill, only CJ and Gross were solid contributors last year.

That is a huge problem.

#117 Mage

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:33 PM

You're not worth any more of my time trying to explain it to you. Remember you are the guy saying rookies aren't included in the salary cap. Do you also not see that practice squad players are?

Have fun learning the rules of the league.


I even said I probably was wrong on that, was merely a question because I thought it was the case due to the own rookie salary cap or whatever (instead I mistook it for the 51 rule). You are right, sure, you won the argument. Congratulations. But get off your high horse. I never once made that rookie statement come across as a fact. Merely a thought preceded by saying I'm not sure/might be wrong.

I apologize for not being 100% on everything like you are (because you've never gotten anything wrong, apparently), and am sorry I was misinformed.

#118 Mage

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:38 PM

compensation of any kind has to be accounted for. JR flying Olsen's family up north for a medical emergency isn't something that people are going to make an issue of.


Neither would paying for players gas.

#119 Montsta

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:53 PM

No one is going to say anything or make a stink of JR flying Olsen anywhere for his kids health because that would be a complete PR disaster.

#120 TheRumGone

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 02:16 PM

We're gonna have to bite the bullet and cut big name players. We need to wipe the slate clean for our future. That 80 million for 9 players is atrocious. We need to take care of it now, as much as we can, even if it is detrimental.


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