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Let's talk about atheism (WALL OF TEXT IN OP DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU)


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#11 PhillyB

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HUDDLER

Posted 17 February 2013 - 09:02 PM

i am still working my way through my position on these things, so i'll not add anything of substance other than to agree that yes, speaking strictly of logical formulations, what you've written is certainly true. many of the popular arguments for the existence of a god or gods are based on fallacious logical thinking.

i've been reading john shelby spong lately. he's an episcopalian minister (i think that's right) who's been dismissed by establishment christians as a "far left liberal" theologian who's dangerous to the cause. we could go into an entire thread on his works but one thing he's talked about that's interesting to me is the idea that there is no such thing as an atheist in that sense that if god is beyond conception (as he/she/it must be to fully fill the form of the conception of what god must be [an old greek arguement i think]) then the god an atheist does not believe in is not god, but a culturally-defined god, as the terms with which we use to describe god come from human symbolism in the form of language and religious liturgy. "i don't believe in god" is a false premise according to spong because what you're not believing is is not god, it's religious interpretations of something for more ineffable

i haven't teased this out one bit to try to get something more substantive and tangible out of it though so it's just a thought

#12 Carolina Husker

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HUDDLER

Posted 17 February 2013 - 10:23 PM

We will all have our chance to see the other side. Choose wisely while you are.

Stay thirsty my friends.


You've got about a 1 in 81,000 chance.

#13 pstall

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HUDDLER

Posted 17 February 2013 - 10:33 PM

i'd say we all have a 100% chance of hitting our expiration date. after that, roll of the dice. if you thought the carnival cruise fiasco was tough. mama mia.

#14 Bronn

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HUDDLER

Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:27 AM

The only intellectually honest position to hold is agnosticism.


This.

When it comes to spiritualism and existentialism, nobody knows anything for a fact. The point at which a fact in those regards will present itself will be too late for you to come back and tell anyone else.

I can theorize all I want about the origins/purposes of our intended/accidental existence. But, as far as we know, life is finite. I often have more important poo to do while I am alive than to ponder the philosophy of our existence.

That said, I lean strongly towards the "no god" side of things, but the biggest stumbling block is the things that separate us from other primates and animals in that we have a seemingly higher level of consciousness and critical thinking.

I often jest about ancient astronaut theory and such, but tbqh I think that is just as plausible (if not more so in most cases) than the history of religious theory, evolution from primate ancestors, etc...

I think the whole thing that intrigues people fundamentally is the origin of the catalyst that sprung us off on our own branch as a species. You either think it can happen physiologically over time, or there has to be some sort of "magic" involved that is basically something we can never comprehend.

All I know for sure is that we've made some pretty huge changes on this planet, positive and negative, during our brief speck of time on it.

#15 mmmbeans

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HUDDLER

Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:40 PM

This.

When it comes to spiritualism and existentialism, nobody knows anything for a fact. The point at which a fact in those regards will present itself will be too late for you to come back and tell anyone else.

I can theorize all I want about the origins/purposes of our intended/accidental existence. But, as far as we know, life is finite. I often have more important poo to do while I am alive than to ponder the philosophy of our existence.

That said, I lean strongly towards the "no god" side of things, but the biggest stumbling block is the things that separate us from other primates and animals in that we have a seemingly higher level of consciousness and critical thinking.


i don't see how that's a stumbling block... it seems that, If anything it give more credence to the idea that we invented god.

#16 MadHatter

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HUDDLER

Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:50 PM

I look at it this way:

I would rather believe there is a God and live my life as such....and be wrong about it.

Rather than not believe there is a Hod and live my life as such....and be wrong.

First case....maybe I missed out on some pleasure and fun while floating around in this rock.

Second case....eternal damnation.

Just a thought.

#17 Bronn

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HUDDLER

Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:52 PM

i don't see how that's a stumbling block... it seems that, If anything it give more credence to the idea that we invented god.


I completely agree that the concept of god to humans is a totally manufactured/recycled concept... God was born out of our very incessant need to explain things. Interestingly enough, this is the same need that drives a lot of science out there. The difference is that science keeps looking, while the other side is content to throw up their hands and give up and call it faith.

I guess what I was saying is that there are some questions that just can't be answered, at least with our current understanding of things, with factual information. We can theorize all day long, but there are a lot of things that we don't know and we assume based on our current collective knowledge.

#18 PhillyB

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HUDDLER

Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:54 PM

I look at it this way:

I would rather believe there is a God and live my life as such....and be wrong about it.

Rather than not believe there is a Hod and live my life as such....and be wrong.

First case....maybe I missed out on some pleasure and fun while floating around in this rock.

Second case....eternal damnation.

Just a thought.


there's transcendental merit to certain aspects of the argument i think, but pascals wager has been long debunked as fallacious (and i'm actually an enormous fan of pascalian epistemology and existential philosophy.)

#19 Bronn

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HUDDLER

Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:56 PM

I look at it this way:

I would rather believe there is a God and live my life as such....and be wrong about it.

Rather than not believe there is a Hod and live my life as such....and be wrong.

First case....maybe I missed out on some pleasure and fun while floating around in this rock.

Second case....eternal damnation.

Just a thought.


But, you're letting a fear based reaction directly affect the way you live.

It shouldn't take fear to make people behave as they ought to behave.

#20 Bronn

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HUDDLER

Posted 18 February 2013 - 04:00 PM

Let me put it this way...

If your intent was to do bad things if there weren't an omnipotent being or an eternal damnation, do you not also believe that said omnipotent being would already know your intentions regardless and your facade of being a good person would be seen through?

If so, why even allow you to exist? To fulfill some omnipotent being's pop quiz on human decision making?

LOL


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