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"Knock out" teen shot breaking/entering


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#31 Panthro

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:47 PM

Is it just murder this applies?

#32 PhillyB

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:03 PM

You can be born into bad situations and still know it's wrong to hit innocent victims in the face with a brick and destroy their jaw.


you're taking for granted the idea that the individual in question has been taught that it's wrong AND that the wrongness of it outweighs what personal good may be gained from acting like an asshole

if you believe in the doctrine of total depravity (which you do) then you should be the first one in line to back this point up

#33 g5jamz

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:05 PM

This didn't take place in a 3rd world country...despite your attempts of giving the kid the benefit of the doubt.

#34 Mr. Scot

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:11 PM

you're taking for granted the idea that the individual in question has been taught that it's wrong AND that the wrongness of it outweighs what personal good may be gained from acting like an asshole

if you believe in the doctrine of total depravity (which you do) then you should be the first one in line to back this point up


I know you're not trying to justify his actions, but it's a pretty big stretch to think nobody ever told him that beating people up and breaking into other people's homes was wrong.

Not like this kid hadn't been arrested before.

#35 PhillyB

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:29 PM

I know you're not trying to justify his actions, but it's a pretty big stretch to think nobody ever told him that beating people up and breaking into other people's homes was wrong.

Not like this kid hadn't been arrested before.


do you think it's a mere coincidence that the majority of juvenile delinquents involved in violent crime come from the lowest socio-economic statuses and the worst home situations?

#36 Mr. Scot

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:41 PM

do you think it's a mere coincidence that the majority of juvenile delinquents involved in violent crime come from the lowest socio-economic statuses and the worst home situations?


Violent people coming from poor family situations doesn't surprise me. I don't necessarily assume people are more likely to become criminals if they start out poor, though. Nor do I assume that someone being poor equates to bad parenting. There are a load of rich kids with every advantage who I wouldn't give a bucket of spit for.

Now, if the time comes that I see someone breaking into my house, threatening me or someone that I care about or whatever, I'm not gonna ask (or care) about their upbringing or their moral education, and I doubt you would either.

#37 SmootsDaddy89

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:47 PM

I agree we shouldn't be flippant over someone's death.

I disagree with the notion that this kid - or anyone else - is automatically doomed to a certain fate just because they're born into a bad situation.

Plenty of people born into bad situations manage to make better lives (look to the NFL for a load of such stories). And likewise, loads of people born with every opportunity and privilege manage to throw their lives into the toilet.

Mr Scot: Urban black youth.

#38 Delhommey

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:55 PM

Poor people are poor cause they want to be. Rich people are rich due to their superior work ethic.


#39 Mr. Scot

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:58 PM

Mr Scot: Urban black youth.


Aaaaand what about 'em?

I'll give you my own experience: Long time ago worked in a fifth grade Sunday School class that was mostly "bus kids" from urban areas. Also was part of an outreach that taught ran out of family homes, also in an urban area. Later on moved to a different class where I was working primarily with children of church members.

I can tell you I got way more aggravation from the church kids than I did either of the first two groups.

Few years later I actually found out one of the kids from my first class wound up in a gang and got himself killed. He wasn't black, and honestly he wasn't a discipline problem when I worked with him either (was a pretty big shock).

#40 SmootsDaddy89

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:27 AM

Aaaaand what about 'em?

I'll give you my own experience: Long time ago worked in a fifth grade Sunday School class that was mostly "bus kids" from urban areas. Also was part of an outreach that taught ran out of family homes, also in an urban area. Later on moved to a different class where I was working primarily with children of church members.

I can tell you I got way more aggravation from the church kids than I did either of the first two groups.

few years later I actually found out one of the kids from my first class wound up in a gang and got himself killed. He wasn't black, and honestly he wasn't a discipline problem when I worked with him either (was a pretty big shock).

Well you had a bad experience with some dumb kids on a church bus, I can see how that would sour your opinion toward inner city kids as a whole. How many hours have you spent actually counseling black youth in the inner city? How many hours have you taught them? How much ACTUAL experience do you have with poor people that you didn't feel coerced into doing because Jesus said? I know they're stinky and gross and have poor juice on them, but they're still people.


Seeing as how I've actually taught in Charlotte and Durham for several years now, let me tell you how it ACTUALLY is minus dumb, anecdotal tripe.


Kids from the ghetto aren't stupid. They realize they're poor and they realize education is the path out of poverty. So you generally have two types of kids in your class.


1. The ones who are striving with everything they have to make a better life for themselves.
2. The ones who were in group 1, but due to some combination of personal and family problems had run ins with the law or in some way, shape, or form have given up on ever achieving their goals. You rarely have kids who are just completely out of it, unless they grew up with older siblings and watched them try and fail.

You see Mr Scot, the only thing more unemployable than a poor black kid is a poor black kid with a criminal record. Because then lily white America actually has a reason for not employing them besides being poor and black.

So you have good, well-meaning kids who are genuinely trying to help bring themselves and their families up through education. But again, they're poor. And they're black. Not a good combination. Because if the rent's due in a week and you know you don't have the money, you don't get the extensions from the landlord that white families would. You don't get backroom deals that white families would. You pay, or you get the fug out.

So you turn to more illicit means of income. Because no one's going to hire you for the reasons I mentioned above (read the posts of staunch conservatives in this thread if you don't believe me.) You get caught. You're fuged. Take how hard it would be for you or I to get a job with a conviction on record and multiply it by 100 for these kids. Can you blame them for giving up on ever having a legitimate career? These are 15 year old kids and they already have a criminal record. They don't consider how long they have left to fix their mistakes. For them, this is the end, it's over.


But go ahead and let your church bus routes color your perspective on inner city youth as a whole, it's not completely retarded or anything.

#41 Mr. Scot

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:36 AM

Well you had a bad experience with some dumb kids on a church bus, I can see how that would sour your opinion toward inner city kids as a whole. How many hours have you spent actually counseling black youth in the inner city? How many hours have you taught them? How much ACTUAL experience do you have with poor people that you didn't feel coerced into doing because Jesus said? I know they're stinky and gross and have poor juice on them, but they're still people.

Seeing as how I've actually taught in Charlotte and Durham for several years now, let me tell you how it ACTUALLY is minus dumb, anecdotal tripe.

Kids from the ghetto aren't stupid. They realize they're poor and they realize education is the path out of poverty. So you generally have two types of kids in your class.

1. The ones who are striving with everything they have to make a better life for themselves.
2. The ones who were in group 1, but due to some combination of personal and family problems had run ins with the law or in some way, shape, or form have given up on ever achieving their goals. You rarely have kids who are just completely out of it, unless they grew up with older siblings and watched them try and fail.

You see Mr Scot, the only thing more unemployable than a poor black kid is a poor black kid with a criminal record. Because then lily white America actually has a reason for not employing them besides being poor and black.

So you have good, well-meaning kids who are genuinely trying to help bring themselves and their families up through education. But again, they're poor. And they're black. Not a good combination. Because if the rent's due in a week and you know you don't have the money, you don't get the extensions from the landlord that white families would. You don't get backroom deals that white families would. You pay, or you get the fug out.

So you turn to more illicit means of income. Because no one's going to hire you for the reasons I mentioned above (read the posts of staunch conservatives in this thread if you don't believe me.) You get caught. You're fuged. Take how hard it would be for you or I to get a job with a conviction on record and multiply it by 100 for these kids. Can you blame them for giving up on ever having a legitimate career? These are 15 year old kids and they already have a criminal record. They don't consider how long they have left to fix their mistakes. For them, this is the end, it's over.

But go ahead and let your church bus routes color your perspective on inner city youth as a whole, it's not completely retarded or anything.


So Would you rather admit to purposely mischaracterizing what I wrote or would you rather cop to awful reading comprehension skills?

#42 SmootsDaddy89

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:41 AM

Yeah I misread and thought you said you got more aggravation out of the first two groups. My overall point still stands though, because my original post was quoting your assertion that people aren't doomed because they're born into a certain socio-economic bracket; bootstraps et all.

#43 Ronald Reagan

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:00 AM

Life is precious to g5.

White life, at least.

One thing the Tinderbox has really driven home for me: Moral superiority is easier when you're a bag of hammers.

Exhibit A

Or you could see that given the right circumstances this kid could easily be breaking innocent brown people's jaws for America.

Poor people are poor cause they want to be. Rich people are rich due to their superior work ethic.


You're trying so hard here but no one gives a shyt,

#44 Mr. Scot

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:07 AM

Yeah I misread and thought you said you got more aggravation out of the first two groups. My overall point still stands though, because my original post was quoting your assertion that people aren't doomed because they're born into a certain socio-economic bracket; bootstraps et all.


Where I grew up wasn't urban. But poor? Very, and rampant teen pregnancy.

The overall makeup: Plenty of good people, plenty of bad. Had classmates whose whole life goal was to sign up for welfare because that was all their parents had done. Others had the drive and desire needed to make something of themselves, and did.

Privilege is no more a guarantee of good character than poverty is a guarantee of bad. I'd say I've met as many "advantaged" kids as disadvantaged who I found to be questionable. Maybe more (didn't exactly keep count).

Bottom line: I'm not willing to buy that somebody's automatically doomed because of where or to whom they're born. Does it make the road tougher? Sure, but plenty of people with "the easy road" wind up wasting their lives while others from tougher backgrounds succeed.

In my experience, the character of the parents is a far better predictor of the kids' future than their economic status or their setting, but even that's far from foolproof.

But like I said, if they're breaking into my house or about to harm someone I care about, I don't care what color they are, what language they primarily speak, what their politics are, where they went to Sunday School, how much money their family had, or anything else.

Honestly, about the only thing I care about at that point is how they respond to the phrase "stop or I'll shoot."

#45 SmootsDaddy89

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:11 AM

When I see numerous examples of black kids out working and putting far more effort into bettering themselves than white kids FROM THE SAME ECONOMIC class and watch the black kids fail while the white kids succeed despite minimal effort, something is wrong with the system. And no amount of platitudes centered around hard work will fix it, because hard work isn't the problem in an overwhelming majority of cases. They only thing I would side with you on is that you have no excuses for succeeding in life regardless of where you born as long as you're a white dude.


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