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I think Mike Florio is right about everything he says here.

PFT Florio Backs Cam

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#46 Guest_BlueBoy_*

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:10 PM

To me the video didn't get absurd until he started talking about Cam...thats when I stopped it. He acted like Cam had a "slump" last year. I guess he only looked at the stats bc I thought Cam played extremely well in the last month or more of the season. Almost as well as any quarterback in the league. I think a lot of times we see a QB with immense talent and we forget that the mental aspect of the game has to catch up to that talent. Brees, Rodgers, Brady, even the Mannings took time to develop...it didn't happen overnight. If Cam was winning I don't even think this would be an issue. He'd be hailed as the next big thing, the national media would be slobbering over him and so forth. If there is anything the Panthers can do to help Cam's progression it would be to start winning games, and that starts with the coaches and goes all the way down to the kicker. If we keep losing its going to stunt his growth. Don't believe me? Look at Russell Wilson's progress and confidence as their season went on last year...and he didn't even have to do that much. Cam has to carry this team on his back sometimes. On the other side of the spectrum look at Matt Stafford, he has tons of talent and potential but bc of their record he's not even seen as a top 10 QB.

Matt Stafford has a ton of talent? Let me guess, throw the ball up to Calvin Johnson. I didn't know that was a skill. Oh, you mean a ton of talent around him? Ok. My bad!

#47 panthers55

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:20 PM

Well, if you think about it what playoffs team had two starting RBs? Only 1 RB is on the field at one time. You really never get double the production. You think if minnesota had 2 Adrian Peterson they would have racked up 4000 yards? No. We have to get rid of at least one. An aging 5'8 WR as our #1 is kind of sad. We spend 120m like any other team. Why can't we have a true #1 WR too. No team have the financially luxury to have a security blanket just in case of injury. Every good playoffs team does the same thing. They put their best 11 players on the field and not worry to much about injury.


We didn't have 2 starting running backs for much of the season. Go back and tell me how many times since 2008 have both Stewart and Williams been healthy for 16 games. Then tell me how we could possibly afford 25 million in dead cap space.

By the way what happened to Minnesota in 2011 when Peterson went down with an ACL injury?? We actually don't have to get rid of one this year. We would be better off restructuring Williams this year and deferring the majority of the cap hit until 2015 when the TV contract will make the cap go up substantially. That way you have some dead cap money in 2014 and the majority in 2015. That beats the hell out of cutting him now when we are way over the cap already and we have other more pressing positions to fill. We can get under the cap restructuring him and a few other guys and cutting Gamble and a few others like Nakamura.

I understand the whole we shouldn't have paid them so much but that is trying to close the barn door after the horse is long gone. This year as it stands now it is better to keep both and restructure them than it is to incur a big cap hit unless we can't restructure Williams.
Deferring costs down the road is not a great way to go normally but when there will be significant cap relief in 2015, it makes sense this time.

#48 Frash Brastard

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:29 PM

No you don't want to restructure both because that's likely just going to compound problems long term. You keep one, which is most feasibly going to be Stewart at this point, and you let the other go.

How is everyone fine with cutting gamble loose but the minute someone mentions Williams being gone it's like omg who's going to replace our 700 yard rusher

#49 Frash Brastard

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:32 PM

Personally I've never understood our fixation on RBs, especially the ridiculous contracts. I've always assumed it was common knowledge that you first build a great line and then you can take an average/good back and make him look truly special. But what do we dumb fans know? I guess we should always defer to the geniuses running things(according to the way many of the huddlers talk)- they must know more than we do right?


It goes back to being depleted at the running back position in 2004 and 2005 and the erroneous sentiment that it's the only reason we weren't successful those years led us to embark on a frivolous endeavor to have 18 starting caliber running backs so we'd never have to go through that again

#50 jarhead

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:41 PM

Florio did not say he believed we could cut Stew this year because of the cap impact but what he said was that we paid too much for both rb's and we need to right size their contracts or get rid of them as soon as it makes sense.It makes sense cutting Dwill this year .

#51 firstdayfan

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:48 PM

Matt Stafford has a ton of talent? Let me guess, throw the ball up to Calvin Johnson. I didn't know that was a skill. Oh, you mean a ton of talent around him? Ok. My bad!


You are kinda making my point. If you dont win games people tend to forget who you are and a player can become lost in the shuffle. I mean the guy has thrown for 10000 yards and 60 TD's in the last two seasons with ONLY calvin johnson. I would say he's pretty good. IF he would have won 10 games each of the last two seasons you probably wouldn't be saying that.

#52 boo7382

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 08:47 PM

Damn. Normally I like what he has to say when he's on the Mac Attack.

This is disappointing. I heard someone say the other day how much it would hurt us to cut DWill.

I'd like to keep JStew and Tolbert but they kind of both are power backs and DWill can run like hell when he breaks free.

Still don't think we need 3 amazing RBs ...Would be nice to use one of them for a position where we actually need some depth

PS lol @ the comment under the article.....only you SouthCak

#53 panthers55

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:04 AM

No you don't want to restructure both because that's likely just going to compound problems long term. You keep one, which is most feasibly going to be Stewart at this point, and you let the other go.

How is everyone fine with cutting gamble loose but the minute someone mentions Williams being gone it's like omg who's going to replace our 700 yard rusher


The reason that you restructure them is because you have to pay more of a cap hit if you release him then if you keep him. If you make it a June 1st hit you have 3.2 million this year in dead cap space and 6.4 million next year in dead cap space. That is 9.4 million you will waste for nothing. And the 6.4 million is in a year where the cap is worse next year than it is this year. Gamble, on the other hand, is in his last year of his contract and will be a free agent next year anyway. This year he counts 10.9 million against the cap of which 3 million is what we have to eat if we release him. So the net saving are 7.9 million with no dead cap space next year.

So you have one guy who ended up on IR last year with the defense being better when he left who gives you a 7.9 million in cap savings this year and no dead cap space going forward versus another guy who was an integral part of your rushing attack which costs you 1.4 million or 9.6 million total to let go this year or if you want to save roughly 5 million this year by making it a June 1st cut but then you pay 6.4 million in dead cap space next year when our cap is worse.

Anf you can't see why people would rather get rid of Gamble than Williams?? Seriously?????

#54 panthers55

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:14 AM

It goes back to being depleted at the running back position in 2004 and 2005 and the erroneous sentiment that it's the only reason we weren't successful those years led us to embark on a frivolous endeavor to have 18 starting caliber running backs so we'd never have to go through that again


No it didn't at all. Picking up Stewart was a reaction to wondering if Williams was going to be a feature back after struggling to pick up pass blocking and being too tentative between the tackles in 2007. Signing Williams to a big contract was in reaction to having to overpay everyone in 2011 after Richardson gutted the team, we went 2-14, and we had to pay people to want to play here. Couple that with concerns that the running game would have to help Cam who everyone said would struggle. Stewart's big contract made little sense given how they were used although I am sure that Hurney's motivation was how dominant they were in 2008.
I don't think 2004 and 2005 had anything to do with it.

#55 Frash Brastard

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:58 PM

The reason that you restructure them is because you have to pay more of a cap hit if you release him then if you keep him. If you make it a June 1st hit you have 3.2 million this year in dead cap space and 6.4 million next year in dead cap space. That is 9.4 million you will waste for nothing. And the 6.4 million is in a year where the cap is worse next year than it is this year. Gamble, on the other hand, is in his last year of his contract and will be a free agent next year anyway. This year he counts 10.9 million against the cap of which 3 million is what we have to eat if we release him. So the net saving are 7.9 million with no dead cap space next year.

So you have one guy who ended up on IR last year with the defense being better when he left who gives you a 7.9 million in cap savings this year and no dead cap space going forward versus another guy who was an integral part of your rushing attack which costs you 1.4 million or 9.6 million total to let go this year or if you want to save roughly 5 million this year by making it a June 1st cut but then you pay 6.4 million in dead cap space next year when our cap is worse.

Anf you can't see why people would rather get rid of Gamble than Williams?? Seriously?????


Gamble has been one of the best cover corners in the entire league in the last two years, doesn't play a position where you decline rapidly around 30, and yea he ended up on IR this last year but DeAngelo Williams finished two consecutive seasons in a row on IR and the panthers' brass followed that up with signing him to a ridiculous contract they had no business giving out. The only reason it makes more sense to cut Gamble is because he's much further down the life of the contract extension he got, which is a shame because a good CB is a higher priority in this league than a good RB.

And a huge part of the reason the defense still performed well without him was because the defensive line was bringing the heat throughout the year. In 2011 when Gamble basically had CJ as the only guy on the line that could pursue a QB he still performed ridiculously well.

This is exactly the kind of crap I knew we'd get ourselves into. Without Williams' extension we wouldn't even be having this conversation. The Panthers would probably give an extend/restructure to Gamble (and they'd have leverage since he ended up on IR last year and the Panthers' defense didn't collapse) that would open up cap space, but we need all that money

#56 panthers55

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 08:36 AM

Gamble has been one of the best cover corners in the entire league in the last two years, doesn't play a position where you decline rapidly around 30, and yea he ended up on IR this last year but DeAngelo Williams finished two consecutive seasons in a row on IR and the panthers' brass followed that up with signing him to a ridiculous contract they had no business giving out. The only reason it makes more sense to cut Gamble is because he's much further down the life of the contract extension he got, which is a shame because a good CB is a higher priority in this league than a good RB.

And a huge part of the reason the defense still performed well without him was because the defensive line was bringing the heat throughout the year. In 2011 when Gamble basically had CJ as the only guy on the line that could pursue a QB he still performed ridiculously well.

This is exactly the kind of crap I knew we'd get ourselves into. Without Williams' extension we wouldn't even be having this conversation. The Panthers would probably give an extend/restructure to Gamble (and they'd have leverage since he ended up on IR last year and the Panthers' defense didn't collapse) that would open up cap space, but we need all that money


First of all no one wants to see Gamble gone. If we could keep everyone I am sure we would. The issue is that fans like you keep making the same arguments without dealing with the realities of the present.. This isn't a debate about what we should have done in 2011 in hindsight. This isn't about whether Williams contract was a good idea then or now given how we have used him. Those debates are largely over. We know the Williams contract wasn't a good one particularly given how things have turned out.

This conversation isn't about whether Gamble is a good player or nor or whether we would like to keep him. it is about whether give the realities of the current cap situation and the state of the current contracts as they exist, it is better to cut Williams or Gamble in order to get below the cap and give us some space to sign free agents.
I believe that given how we finished up last year on defense and how we actually improved once Gamble and Norman were no longer in the game, that Gamble's price tag doesn't warrant a 11 million cap hit this year and he is one of the easiest contracts to unload.

Your coulda shoulda argument about Williams is really useless at this point. It is too late to put that horse back in the barn, now we have to figure out what to do from here not keep blaming Hurney who is no longer here for everything.

If Williams contract was up this year and we could save 8 million by letting him go without having a ton of dead cap space next year, I would be the first to advocate cutting him as well.

#57 panthers55

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 08:44 AM

As for the issue of whether Gamble has been one of the best cover corners in the league over the past 2 years, I think you have to ask whether that has been in zone or man. Perhaps someone has the facts to elucidate this discussion but my biased subjective observation suggests that he is a good zone corner but he is not great in man coverage because he plays off the receiver too much. What I saw later in the year with Thomas for example was closer man coverage and jamming receivers off the line which made it harder for quarterbacks to hit the hot reads and dump the ball off so easily like they did earlier in the year. So there was more time for the rush to actually get there.

Is Gamble good in man coverage or zone?? Does he fit our current defense or the one that Fox ran? Does his 11 million dollar cap space justify what he can do going forward? All questions I am wondering about..........................

#58 DaveThePanther2008

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 04:15 PM

I am interested in what Shula will do with both. From what I remember, He had a great backfield with W. Dunn and Mike Alscott. Throw in what Cam does. I realize the money committed but From what I understand that we don't gain anything Cap Wise by cutting either DeAngelo or Stewart.

I also have read that we are keeping D Will. Both Stewart and D'Will are special backs. Chudz didn't use either of them very well. I would love to see us get back to a more balanced attack.

Many of you agree to get rid of one or both. I hope we keep both since there isn't really much of a savings if we cut Either Running back.

I would love to see us somehow keep Gamble but I think that is pretty much impossible.



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