Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

let's have a calm, rational discussion about scholarships for minorities


  • Please log in to reply
94 replies to this topic

#71 pstall

pstall

    Gazebo Effect

  • Joined: 24-November 08
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • posts: 23,122
  • Reputation: 2,948
  • LocationMontford
HUDDLER

Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:44 PM

when we say outrage over minorities getting scholarships what are we saying? is that from groups or individuals or some kind of campaign or talk radio?

maybe i have my head down for work and don't hear about all of this.

#72 Gazi

Gazi

    SENIOR HUDDLER

  • Joined: 07-December 08
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • posts: 7,831
  • Reputation: 311
HUDDLER

Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:59 PM

Whatever happened to Hannidate?

#73 Davidson Deac II

Davidson Deac II

    Senior Member

  • Joined: 24-November 08
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • posts: 17,929
  • Reputation: 1,459
HUDDLER

Posted 22 February 2013 - 04:30 PM

I don't really feel like reading thru this entire thread, so I will just say that private foundations or private colleges should be able to fund and distribute scholarships as they please within reason.

Scholarships that are funded with public money probably shouldn't be race based. I would be ok with a mixture of merit based and need based, and this is one area that I think a quota system would be ok.

#74 PhillyB

PhillyB

    sườn núi phía đông thứ ba của mặt trời

  • Joined: 29-November 08
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • posts: 22,928
  • Reputation: 18,360
  • Locationthird spur east of the sun
HUDDLER

Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:33 PM

rememeber that this entire argument, to be taken in its proper context, must be juxtaposed against the history of race relations in the united states and the economic and educational disparity remaining as a legacy of centuries of institutionalized racism. the question at hand is ultimately one of how social justice is arbitrated... should society collectively move towards racial egalitarianism as it relates to those factors, or are we looking at things diachronically and justifying things based on the legal system in this moment in time?

in other words should society as a whole be making necessary sacrifices of fairness in the micro-scale - like this scholarship - to achieve an overall equal society in the marco scale, or is the past the past and things are just the way they are and we should simply move forward as if society is and always has been equal?

this is the question i pull out of the debate, and it's fundamental to many other societal conflicts.

#75 pstall

pstall

    Gazebo Effect

  • Joined: 24-November 08
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • posts: 23,122
  • Reputation: 2,948
  • LocationMontford
HUDDLER

Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:45 PM

the past is the past, however,that doesn't mean the future can't be significantly better than the past.

also, i don't think making sacrifices(maybe concessions is a better word) is necessary in the name of fairness. doing what is right by the person on an individual basis is where you stay out of the weeds.
when you try a blanket approach it almost always has unintended consequences. from my exp in the corporate world, this is where all your issues stem from. be it racial, political or gender.

more minorities than ever are doing well if not extremely exceptional by previous generation standards. that doesn't mean you stop whats being going on. almost like someone who stops taking their medications because they feel better. continue on.

#76 PhillyB

PhillyB

    sườn núi phía đông thứ ba của mặt trời

  • Joined: 29-November 08
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • posts: 22,928
  • Reputation: 18,360
  • Locationthird spur east of the sun
HUDDLER

Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:08 PM

also, i don't think making sacrifices(maybe concessions is a better word) is necessary in the name of fairness. doing what is right by the person on an individual basis is where you stay out of the weeds.
when you try a blanket approach it almost always has unintended consequences. from my exp in the corporate world, this is where all your issues stem from. be it racial, political or gender.


i contend that it's very easy to come to that conclusion when you and i in our whiteness (i'm assuming you're white) come from a context of generational priviledge (as it relates to the stacking of the system in our favor institutionally.)

#77 Mr. Scot

Mr. Scot

    Football Historian

  • Joined: 25-November 08
  • posts: 44,794
  • Reputation: 13,335
  • LocationSC
SUPPORTER

Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:36 PM

rememeber that this entire argument, to be taken in its proper context, must be juxtaposed against the history of race relations in the united states and the economic and educational disparity remaining as a legacy of centuries of institutionalized racism. the question at hand is ultimately one of how social justice is arbitrated... should society collectively move towards racial egalitarianism as it relates to those factors, or are we looking at things diachronically and justifying things based on the legal system in this moment in time?

in other words should society as a whole be making necessary sacrifices of fairness in the micro-scale - like this scholarship - to achieve an overall equal society in the marco scale, or is the past the past and things are just the way they are and we should simply move forward as if society is and always has been equal?

this is the question i pull out of the debate, and it's fundamental to many other societal conflicts.


On the idea of overall approach (not the individual scholarship discussion)

One suggested approach is to say that since the scales were tilted toward one race in the past, we should now tip them against that race in the present. Thus, equality.

The problem with that: Such "scale tipping" doesn't affect a collective race. It affects individuals. And the individuals affected had nothing whatsoever to do with the inequity of the past.

Essentially, you'd be trying to make two wrongs make a right.

Past injustice is an extremely difficult thing to quantify. And making people in the present pay for if is a pretty tough thing to justify.

Bottom Line: Vengeance doesn't create equality, especially when it's carried out on people that have nothing to do with the original injustice.

That's the macro answer.

The micro answer: I have no problem with targeted scholarships. If people have issues with them coming from the government via a public school, seek out private sponsorship and continue them under that umbrella.

#78 pstall

pstall

    Gazebo Effect

  • Joined: 24-November 08
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • posts: 23,122
  • Reputation: 2,948
  • LocationMontford
HUDDLER

Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:43 PM

i am white. tell me about my privileged life i led.

i think where you are coming from sounds alot like white guilt and an overcompensation to right some wrongs. by no means does that mean you are not trying to help.

two wrongs don't make a right. i am a strong proponent for equal rights and access. i could share so many things i have done the last 20 yrs or so of my life but then it gets marginalized as being ancedotal.

i have no doubt i have had access to more doors because of the color of my skin. of which i had zero control of. not too mention no control over those that opened the door for me or awaited on the other side of the door.

too much of these things are over intellecualized or from a lense of academia and because there is no real discourse with the very people some are trying to help, it just ends up being lip service.


but now, there is almost no way to know if you got something because of the color of your skin. i'm not going to second guess or beat myself up when i do NOT get a job or a contract or whatever and think it was because I was white. if that was true, that's on the person who made that choice. not me.

i think the white guilt thing is the ultimate patronization of blacks.

maybe i'm a rare case. i grew up smack dab in the middle of the projects(the hood). i was almost always the only white guy on the basketball court or field. never was a big deal. i have best friends from then for over 30 yrs that are black.

i have coached kids from some of the toughest backgrounds imaginable. i think i have a fairly better grasp then some whites on what black people have gone thru. not fully but i get a pretty good idea.

just adding that part in only because of the white knapsack thing and how it's projecting some white persons guilty for not having a friggin clue about racial issues or other races. not saying thats you philly at all. totally not saying that.

one last ancedotal thing before someone minimizes that. i work in an area of the bank where i am one of 4 white males out of 120 overall employees. you would be surprised at the view of the whole white guilt movement.

african americans have a pretty good radar when someone is patronizing them and trying to "relate".

this is def a beer or more worthy convo.

#79 PhillyB

PhillyB

    sườn núi phía đông thứ ba của mặt trời

  • Joined: 29-November 08
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • posts: 22,928
  • Reputation: 18,360
  • Locationthird spur east of the sun
HUDDLER

Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:15 PM

i am white. tell me about my privileged life i led.


if you'd read the part where i said "as it relates to race-based societal institutionalism" you'd have saved yourself that entire diatribe. of course not every white person comes from priviledge, just like not every minority comes from poverty. maybe you just misread what i wrote.

also let's not attack the false premise of white guilt. it's lazy and counterproductive to attemps at arriving at solutions on these types of topics.

#80 pstall

pstall

    Gazebo Effect

  • Joined: 24-November 08
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • posts: 23,122
  • Reputation: 2,948
  • LocationMontford
HUDDLER

Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:24 PM

the white guilt thing is towards those white people who think they have it all figured for both blacks and whites when they are out to lunch.

and come on man. dont call what i said a diatribe.

i'm very passionate about equal rights and getting rid of injustices. i may take a dif path but doesn't mean i don't care.


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users