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I just spent the last hour calculating how many people are in hell according to establishment christian theology


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#76 PhillyB

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:07 AM

in fact, this young earth junk i was unaware of up until a few years ago. who freakin cares how old the earh is?


i would argue that it makes the difference between whether or not we can apply a mosaic cosmogony to society.

#77 pstall

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:19 AM

society needs to be loved and led. you do those two things, everything else falls into place.

#78 twylyght

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:40 AM

My approach is, are you talking about FAITH/RELIGION or THE CHURCH?

Not trying to be preachy here, just my opinion... In saying that, one must divide FAITH from "the church" so to speak. My faith is Christianity, but that doesn't subscribe me to any one subset of denomination or their specific doctrines within the faith.

Being Christian requires you to accept salvation through the belief of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and believe that he died for our sins. Once you accept salvation, TRY to live your life the way Jesus would and you are golden... Do you make mistakes? Sure. Perfect? Nope, and nowhere close. But, in that sense, I've done my part and continue to do so. So, I'm good. I'm doing my part as a Christian.

Aside from that, I don't know how I or any other Christian, could pretend to know what the criteria are for judgement. I've thought many a time about children born in a third-world country with no idea of what Christianity is, and what happens when they pass? Do they go to hell. I'm absolutely sure they don't. What about other people of other religions or non-believers who live morally strong lives? Do they go to hell? I really would have a hard time saying yes.

What I do know is that by our definition, salvation is accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and believing in his works. That's what I've done and that's what I talk with my friends about when they ask.

Now, could it be that when people leave the physical realm that they are met by God and asked whether they accept Jesus then? It's possible, I don't know. I just believe we are all presented with an opportunity at some point or another, even multiple opportunities (in life and possibly after), and therefore everyone will have an opportunity.

So, to assume everyone that has died that didn't adhere to what "the church" said went to hell is both inaccurate and unrealistic IMHO. Again, "the church" and religion/faith, are two very different concepts to me.

A doctrine is something developed by man, which isn't necessarily indicative or predicated by the religion itself, i.e. confessing for your sins to a priest in Catholicism. IMO, as a Christian, we can't just take what any one church, preacher, or theologian says as the one and only interpretation of what we believe. They are men, just as I am a man, and I have just as much authority in interpretation as they do within my faith. That's where I emphasize that each person's relationship with God is a personal walk. There are slight differences in understanding, actions, behaviors, etc., but so long as they have that relationship with God, then they are good while they are here in this life. What happens after, no one knows but I'd rather prepare myself beforehand and cover my bases. What I do know personally is that God is REAL, and the one I have followed has shown himself to me, and that is why I believe... All the other surrounding questions I may not have answers to, so as I said, I'm just doing my part.

Sorry for slightly digressing, but my point is just that - no one knows for certain what the criteria are for judgment, but believing certainly puts you in a good position going forward.


Well said sir. I think it is also worth pointing out that it was the priests and preachers of the day that had Jesus killed by the Roman government. When religion gets in the way of one's relationship with God, then it has failed in the one thing it is supposedly tasked to do.

That isn't to say that religion is necessarily a bad thing. It is simply to say that our intentions are made known by our deeds rather than words. Some people need religion as a means to further along their relationship with God and they do exactly that with it.

"Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble." It's a wisdom I still struggle to make myself abide by on a daily basis while still understanding the sheer breadth of its scope.

#79 Cat

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:32 AM

in fact, this young earth junk i was unaware of up until a few years ago. who freakin cares how old the earh is?



That blows my mind. As a Bible reading Christan how is that even possible? Did you not read and study your Bible? I mean you're not the first Christian I've met that says that but I always find out that those who haven't thought about that stuff have read very little of their Bible and hardly any of the OT. They fully believed in a book they have not even read or thought anything about. It's complete blind faith.

#80 mmmbeans

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:43 AM

i disagree with christians not utilizing critical thinking. until you have met EVERY single christian who is out there, just be quiet because you are basically being Hank Hill.

in fact, this young earth junk i was unaware of up until a few years ago. who freakin cares how old the earh is?

we can barely figure out what to do as a society in the days we have been given. and we somehow are so arrogant to think we can grasp such heady things? lol riiight.



"we use critical thinking"

"who cares about critical thinking?"

"critical thinking = arrogance."


are you f*cking serious? i'm really interested in where we came from and how we came to be... unfortunately "god did it, stfu" isn't a sufficient answer for me... I don't blame that on christianity or anything, that's just the way i am. But I f*cking care how old the earth is. Some semblance of objective truth is important to me... You can say you don't care or that we're incapable of understanding "heady things" (whatever those are.) In that case, read your book and shut up. Don't tell me i'm arrogant or incapable because you're complacent.

Keep searching pstall, your smugness reeks of insecurity.

#81 stirs

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:00 AM

My position is that there are some in the faith that major on minors so to speak. The age of the earth issues can never be proven/disproven from reading the bible. The whole "gap" theory from the first couple verses and what "create" and "make" meant in Hebrew are all philosophical arguments about the creation and science and how they mesh and how they don't.

Tons of exhaustive work has been done on gap theories and the like. All I am saying, it is not a quick open and shut study.

#82 pstall

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:52 AM

smugness? i'm being genuine in supporting philly in his endeavor. he is searching and doing his homework and i commend him for that. im not slamming him and saying he is wrong or wasting his time.
so some of you need to spare me the self righteous piety.

i have read the bible thru mulitple times. i understand Greek and the Maccabee's and the Apocrphya that goes on. I don't interject all this stuff because it's a can of worms not worth opening.

the age of the earth is a non issue in terms of salvation or the inspiration of the bible. for some its superseded God and Jesus and that's wrong. not to mention dumb.

in all of Jesus' interactions with people he didn't go ok rich young ruler, what about the commandments? The rich young ruler goes I have kept them since I was a boy. You don't see Jesus go ok for the show case showdown, how old is the earth?

the age of the earth is a shiny object that simply distracts from core issues of personal change, conviction and ultimately salvation.

i highly doubt some who are on the fence are going to go oh, you mean the earth is 1 million years old? ok i think Noah's Ark was real then.

maybe some want to know that so there is some way of linking the great flood with other culture's and the bible etc. maybe not.

personally, all im saying is there is nothing wrong with doing some research etc on a myriad of topics, you are talking to the king of reading stuff and analyzing things, but more importantly, its better to focus on the things that will simply help you impact others going forward.

#83 pstall

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:58 AM

im amazed and some of the leaps some of you make as i go back and read. critical thinking equals arrogance? HUH???

when i say we as a SOCIETY(didn't say non believers but included all us mouth breathers) have a hard time grasping heady stuff im saying we do very goofy things and so its funny to me when look at the things the way WE do. sheesh

and im not going well thats what the bible says so shut up. i keep going back to Jesus. look at his life, what he did, what he focused on, how he treated others, why he did what he did, why did he stir up so much in such a short period of time.

#84 thatlookseasy

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:21 AM

I have no problem with people who read the bible as something of a moral compass, helpful anecdotes which talk about the human experience.

But if you take any of the stories in the bible as literal truth or a scientific description of the universe around us? lol

#85 Cat

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:45 AM

if you believe in the Trinity then Jesus was around for the genocide he commanded on the Amalekites. you always bring up love mercy and grace but in all reality that concept is only a small fragment of what's in the Bible. you accept the in the Bible as the inspired Word of God yet you only pay attentionto a handful of text of your choosing that match your own morality. Your god simply reflects your own morality and beliefs.

#86 Chimera

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:02 PM

I dont think we can understand everything. But historically religion has hindered our scientific understanding of the world rather than help it whenever it disagrees with scripture. Hell just look at the middle east right now


I havent read the thread beyond this post so i apologize if this has been addressed

Historically religious groups have advanced our scientific understanding of the world. Sure, western Europe during the middle ages was a time when Christianity became ruled by man's inability to reason rather than scripture, and that is the exception rather than the norm.

I'm sure you're not going to discount all the medical advances made by Muslims, or the Catholic derived Big Bang Theory itself, are you?

#87 pstall

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:31 PM

if you believe in the Trinity then Jesus was around for the genocide he commanded on the Amalekites. you always bring up love mercy and grace but in all reality that concept is only a small fragment of what's in the Bible. you accept the in the Bible as the inspired Word of God yet you only pay attentionto a handful of text of your choosing that match your own morality. Your god simply reflects your own morality and beliefs.


Sure cat.


#88 Panthro

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:43 PM



#89 Matthias

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 05:22 PM

In response to the first post, those calculations are simply wrong. It's based on the wrong thinking. God judges us based on what we know. Yes it is true that according to what is taught in Scripture, Jesus is the Savior of the world. Yet who is Jesus? He is grace personified. We don't earn Jesus, we don't earn our salvation. Most think because people are born into another culture, when they die, they go to Hell because they didn't become believers while alive. In other words, they were born into the wrong culture, and the penalty is an eternity of seperation from God. Yet that is not what the Bible teaches at all. Saying we were born into the right culture, is saying we earned salvation from God. Yet if it's earned, then it's not grace.

So what I'm saying is, if a person never heard of Jesus, God takes that into account. If they were graceful to others, God will be graceful to them, and they can receive Jesus perhaps upon death. (I don't know exactly how this will work, but I imagine it was something like how all the old testament patrons died before Jesus arrived on the earth. They will have a chance to receive Jesus) There are no children in Hell, as children don't know anything, because remember God judges us based on what we know. Now once you know, you are going to be held accountable for that. With that said, not everyone has heard the true message of Jesus just yet, even people who have heard of this doctrine before haven't heard about who Jesus truly is.

#90 PhillyB

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 07:53 PM

In response to the first post, those calculations are simply wrong. It's based on the wrong thinking. God judges us based on what we know. Yes it is true that according to what is taught in Scripture, Jesus is the Savior of the world. Yet who is Jesus? He is grace personified. We don't earn Jesus, we don't earn our salvation. Most think because people are born into another culture, when they die, they go to Hell because they didn't become believers while alive. In other words, they were born into the wrong culture, and the penalty is an eternity of seperation from God. Yet that is not what the Bible teaches at all. Saying we were born into the right culture, is saying we earned salvation from God. Yet if it's earned, then it's not grace.

So what I'm saying is, if a person never heard of Jesus, God takes that into account. If they were graceful to others, God will be graceful to them, and they can receive Jesus perhaps upon death. (I don't know exactly how this will work, but I imagine it was something like how all the old testament patrons died before Jesus arrived on the earth. They will have a chance to receive Jesus) There are no children in Hell, as children don't know anything, because remember God judges us based on what we know. Now once you know, you are going to be held accountable for that. With that said, not everyone has heard the true message of Jesus just yet, even people who have heard of this doctrine before haven't heard about who Jesus truly is.


if the number was generously reduced to one billion people, reflecting the most lax, liberal theological understanding of salvation requirements one could imagine, would that negate the point behind the post?


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