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A little clarification on the DW situation, cut designations, and how it affects the cap


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#31 CRA

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 01:51 PM

FIrst I would use the cap savings to ensure we have a replacement for him. People seem to forget that Stewart is coming off ankle surgery. Everyone assumes he will be fine. I hope so but ankles and knees are the problem for backs at any age. Then if there were any left over, I might look elsewhere. I for one and not convinced there are 6th round 1600 yard backs out there for the taking in free agency or the draft.


You could just promote someone like Smith already with the team.....or draft a RB in the 4th round. A replacement isn't going to eat up the savings.

So my question still remains.....if you knew you could get a starting RG or S with the savings (and you have the ability to know he works out)....would you part with Williams as a June 1 cut. It is a simple hypothetical question.




and Williams isn't a 1600 yards RB. He has hit 800 once in the last 3 years.....you aren't having to replace what Adrian Peterson provides to his team.

#32 TheRed

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 02:54 PM

Draft another RB lol..

I know some of you guys don't want Williams around, but holy hell you are delusional.

#33 CRA

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:09 PM

Draft another RB lol..

I know some of you guys don't want Williams around, but holy hell you are delusional.

That is where you get your RBs....the draft....and not early.

You don't pay old RBs to not do much....that is Carolina delusion. Plus, if you followed the flow of the convo....the draft a RB mention was just part of getting him to answer a hupothetical question bc he said HE would address a replacement

#34 TheRed

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:24 PM

That is where you get your RBs....the draft....and not early.

You don't pay old RBs to not do much....that is Carolina delusion


No, that was a Hurney delusion. One we are and will be paying for like it or not.

I wouldn't waste any draft pick on an RB this year, far too many other needs.

#35 BigSyke

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:28 PM

if this gettleman is good enough he can find an arian foster in UDFA.........cant wait to see what this guy has......

#36 CRA

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:34 PM

No, that was a Hurney delusion. One we are and will be paying for like it or not.

I wouldn't waste any draft pick on an RB this year, far too many other needs.

I wouldn't either....

Like I said, I was just trying to get him to answer a hupothical question if he would cut Williams if it meant a sure fire solid S or RG could be had with the savings. He didn't answer saying he first would have to address his replacement....was pointing out a replacement could be had and it wouldn't dip into the savings so that he would answer the initial question

#37 Thorrez

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:43 PM

Is that what we did with Nakamura? You assume that any restructure is simply throwing money at him and that isn't always the case.
Secondly we are already screwed for 9.6 million in dead cap space no matter what we do. That doesn't go away unless we figure out how to restructure him creatively. You keep talking about not keeping 2 backs as if the situation is just occurring. What you and the OP fail to see is that the damage is already done. Now the issue is to do the best thing you can with the cards you are dealt. I think that they can restructure a deal which keeps Williams a Panther, reduce the cap hit this year and keeps us from cap hell in the future since there is a reducing dead cap hit of 3.4 for each year going forward. No doubt he doesn't get all the money in the contract going forward, I doubt he even thought he would see all that. The issue is that there is no advantage to dumping him before June 1st we all agree. I think there will be ways to restructure him so we can save now and not push all the cap hit down the road.


"restructure him creatively"

This off season. Please, stop dreaming.

Why would Williams agree to a deal that pays him less money? That is not, creative of not, going to happen. We just don't have any leverage at all.

"Threaten" to cut him is like saying: I know we payed you $21M over that last two seasons, and we take a huge dead cap hit. So we think we are in a good position to cut you! You better agree to play from less money!!!

Not very likely. Actually just no.

That leaves a money up front deal. And that is just pushing to problem forward (however, might happen as a last minute squeeze under the cap but we are talking Stu kind of reconstruct levels, quit dreaming about freeing money for FAs).

Next year:

$3,2M in dead cap 2014 and 2015. And get rid of his $5.75M base salary. The only question is if he will be a June 1st or just outright cut.

I actually think there is a chance that we see him back in 2014 in about a $2M a year 2 year contract. And that is if he feel that we have a shot at a deep playoff run. But with that $9,6M combined with an already terrible cap situation. There is no reason for him to sign anything this year.

#38 Thorrez

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:49 PM

I wouldn't either....

Like I said, I was just trying to get him to answer a hupothical question if he would cut Williams if it meant a sure fire solid S or RG could be had with the savings. He didn't answer saying he first would have to address his replacement....was pointing out a replacement could be had and it wouldn't dip into the savings so that he would answer the initial question


What savings? The only saving, on the cap, by cutting him this year is the 4.75 (2013 salary) minus 3,2 (2013 part of the sb).

What quality G or S do you have in mind for $1,55M a year.

#39 panthers55

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:59 PM

"restructure him creatively"

This off season. Please, stop dreaming.

Why would Williams agree to a deal that pays him less money? That is not, creative of not, going to happen. We just don't have any leverage at all.

"Threaten" to cut him is like saying: I know we payed you $21M over that last two seasons, and we take a huge dead cap hit. So we think we are in a good position to cut you! You better agree to play from less money!!!

Not very likely. Actually just no.

That leaves a money up front deal. And that is just pushing to problem forward (however, might happen as a last minute squeeze under the cap but we are talking Stu kind of reconstruct levels, quit dreaming about freeing money for FAs).

Next year:

$3,2M in dead cap 2014 and 2015. And get rid of his $5.75M base salary. The only question is if he will be a June 1st or just outright cut.

I actually think there is a chance that we see him back in 2014 in about a $2M a year 2 year contract. And that is if he feel that we have a shot at a deep playoff run. But with that $9,6M combined with an already terrible cap situation. There is no reason for him to sign anything this year.


Why would he restructure? Because he can't get close to what we are going to give him elsewhere. Remember that the majority of his salary including all the guaranteed money has already been paid although it hasn't been recouped. So the 9.6 million in dead cap space has already been paid to him. He is getting 4.8 million in real money this year, 5 million next year for example. No one is going to give him a big payday. There are too many backs out there. Bradshaw, Turner and several others are out there. As for being creative, it is really about working with him to keep him here. If he wants to go elsewhere it won't be a catastrophe. But I think he will be more than willing to restructure.

#40 CRA

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 06:13 PM

"restructure him creatively"

This off season. Please, stop dreaming.

Why would Williams agree to a deal that pays him less money? That is not, creative of not, going to happen. We just don't have any leverage at all.

"Threaten" to cut him is like saying: I know we payed you $21M over that last two seasons, and we take a huge dead cap hit. So we think we are in a good position to cut you! You better agree to play from less money!!!

Not very likely. Actually just no.

That leaves a money up front deal. And that is just pushing to problem forward (however, might happen as a last minute squeeze under the cap but we are talking Stu kind of reconstruct levels, quit dreaming about freeing money for FAs).

Next year:

$3,2M in dead cap 2014 and 2015. And get rid of his $5.75M base salary. The only question is if he will be a June 1st or just outright cut.

I actually think there is a chance that we see him back in 2014 in about a $2M a year 2 year contract. And that is if he feel that we have a shot at a deep playoff run. But with that $9,6M combined with an already terrible cap situation. There is no reason for him to sign anything this year.


Carolina has most of the leverage...

Williams can take a paycut (big one) or be cut. They don't NEED him...he is a luxury. Cutting him essentially gives them the chance to use the created cap space despite paying him to leave to grab someone to make the team better.

#41 panthers55

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 06:16 PM

You could just promote someone like Smith already with the team.....or draft a RB in the 4th round. A replacement isn't going to eat up the savings.

So my question still remains.....if you knew you could get a starting RG or S with the savings (and you have the ability to know he works out)....would you part with Williams as a June 1 cut. It is a simple hypothetical question.




and Williams isn't a 1600 yards RB. He has hit 800 once in the last 3 years.....you aren't having to replace what Adrian Peterson provides to his team.


First off Armond Smith has 6 carries in his 2 seasons with us, hardly a replacement for Williams. Secondly he will cost 550,000 this year which when added to the 3.4 million in dead cap space equals almost 4 million for that slot. That is likely 2 million over what it would cost to keep Williams if he restructures based on my scenario. So we have a guy who has a total of 6 carries replacing a guy who is our franchise leader and most explosive back over 2 million in salary??

No Smith won't replace Williams and those in charge are smart enough to not even try that unless they have little choice by Williams not agreeing to the restructure.

#42 CRA

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 06:18 PM

What savings? The only saving, on the cap, by cutting him this year is the 4.75 (2013 salary) minus 3,2 (2013 part of the sb).

What quality G or S do you have in mind for $1,55M a year.


If he is a June 1 cut he creates 3.4 mill. You certainly can find a quality player for that.

#43 CRA

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 06:24 PM

First off Armond Smith has 6 carries in his 2 seasons with us, hardly a replacement for Williams. Secondly he will cost 550,000 this year which when added to the 3.4 million in dead cap space equals almost 4 million for that slot. That is likely 2 million over what it would cost to keep Williams if he restructures based on my scenario. So we have a guy who has a total of 6 carries replacing a guy who is our franchise leader and most explosive back over 2 million in salary??

No Smith won't replace Williams and those in charge are smart enough to not even try that unless they have little choice by Williams not agreeing to the restructure.


If Stewart and Tolbert earn their checks....you don't NEED another RB to steal carries. You need a bench rider who you don't pay diddly.

Cam still gets his.

Point is to get AWAY from paying RBs....and you want to cut Willams and still being in a new guy to steal carries, pay well, and keep other guys from earning their checks.

#44 panthers55

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 06:25 PM

Carolina has most of the leverage...

Williams can take a paycut (big one) or be cut. They don't NEED him...he is a luxury. Cutting him essentially gives them the chance to use the created cap space despite paying him to leave to grab someone to make the team better.


He isn't going to take a big pay cut. What we will do is likely move some non guaranteed salary from 2014 to 2015 so we can reduce his salary and cap number next year in trade off for guaranteeing some of this year's salary to a signing bonus. The signing bonus takes the place of some of his non guaranteed salary this year cutting the cap number. By deferring some of his 2014 salary to 2015 we reduce his cap hit next year. If we cut him on 2015 all of that roster bonus isn't guaranteed anyway so we cut him with little consequence. That way we keep him this year and (he makes a few million more than he would normally would) which is why he signs it. it save us cap money this year and next year and we cut him either next year or in 2015 when his cap hit won't be that big or we can defer it to 2016 on a June 1 cut when there should be some TV money finally.

#45 panthers55

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 06:28 PM

If Stewart and Tolbert earn their checks....you don't NEED another RB to steal carries. You need a bench rider who you don't pay diddly.

Cam still gets his.


Stewart had surgery last month. His return is surely not guaranteed and Tolbert is great from 5 yards out but he is hardly a homerun hitter. Tolbert and Stewart are the same type of back and aren't explosive. No we can't carry on these 2 to carry the load.


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