142 replies to this topic

[carpantherfan84]

haha eff all your skin color choices... Jesus was GREY

lol, http://www.carolinah...ent-disclosure/

Remember this.

[carpantherfan84]

off topic but this is cool as hell

Thanks, I am sitting on roughly one hundred novels, text books, non-fiction, and reference books. It is modest but growing.




edit: I just counted and it is over two hundred

[rodeo]

Ever hear of a guy named Moses?

There is 0 historical or archeological evidence for jewish slavery in Egypt.

[Stannis]

Actually, there are several historical writings and/or authors outside of the Bible that conclude that Jesus existed. I am a skeptic by nature and I am not here to thump a Bible at anyone, but after careful study, reading, & research, I believe Jesus was who he claimed to be. And to the OP - yes I know he was Jewish with dark features. Doesn't matter to me.

Ignatius (35-107) wrote of the birth, and resurrection which took place in the time of the govenment of Pontius Pilate, being truly and certainly accomplished by Jesus Christ.
Josephus (AD 37-100) - a Jewish source indicated that the Jews were familiar with Jesus, His miracles, His death, and the claims regarding the resurrection
Bavli (in the Babylonian Talmud) - also talked about Jesus - althought he did not believe who Jesus claimed to be
Thallus , Celsus, and Suetonius (70-130) were Roman historians that provided Roman testimony to the fact that Jesus really lived.
Cornelius Tacitus was another Roman historian (55-120) that presented Jesus as a real historical figure and wrote that he had been executed under Pontius Pilate.

In all, at least 42-authors mention Jesus within 150-years of his death, and several of these were not believers...just historians. Further, prophecy was written about Jesus in the Old Testament 400-500 years before he was born. Prophecy in Psalms, Isaiah, Zechariah, Hosea, & Micah foretold where he would be born, how he would live, where he would live, how he would be betrayed, and how he would die. Pretty interesting if you like history.

Ignatius, at best, is a witness to the belief of others. He never witnessed Jesus. He witnessed people who believed it.

Josephus wasn't born until 37 AD. Not a reliable witness. See also: Ignatius. Furthermore, his accounts are believed by many historians to be interpolations to his writings rather than originally wrote by him himself (and many priests, according to interviews I have seen on it). His writings are most likely not authentic and again, his writings were well after Jesus' supposed death. Not a good source to say "I know some people who believe it". Not a single writer before the 4th century (if my memory serves me correctly) even mentions Josephus' writings. That lends to the idea that his mentioning of Jesus was in fact an interpolation.

Apologists like to push Thallus into the 1st century to make him a "better witness" but all we can be sure of is that he wrote before Theophilus, a bishop in Antioch who mentions his name, at the end of the 2nd century. The probability is that Thallus is actually a 2nd century writer.


I can do this with all the ones you listed, I just don't feel like it. The point is this. The ones you listed are not eyewitness accounts. They are people who are reporting on the belief of others decades after the events supposedly happened. None of those lends itself to supporting Jesus' existence. Not one. There would be no debate if there was ACTUAL evidence to support the existence of Jesus. That's the thing, there isn't. I am willing to concede, as I said early in the thread, that a man named Jesus or a man that the story is based off of by a similar name existed. Now, show evidence of divinity, and do better than saying "I have a list of people who report on the beliefs of other people".



As far as "prophecy" goes....you do realize that the OT was around during the time of the writers of the NT, right? It's not hard to make the pieces fit when you have the foundation already laid out. It's as if a buddy of mine that passed away was writing a book on the life and times of Saddam Hussein, but didn't live long enough to write of Saddam's last 10 years. Well, all I have to do is just pick up where he left off....and throw in that Saddam was actually a ballerina and an avid Brittany Spears fan. It isn't true. Or, same example, but he dies before 9/11 and let's say he predicts that there will be a massive attack on US soil from the Middle East. In New York. On skyscrapers. And I just so happen to finish his writings and pencil in the details. Except, it was actually a rocket filled with kittens that hit the twin towers. Is part of it true? Sure. A flying craft hit the twin towers. However, the details are false. In thousands of years, it is possible that some people might believe that. And they would be silly.

[Proudiddy]

I'm a bit tired myself, and may return to tackle this point by point, but there is a big one I do want to cover now. Burden of proof. It is not a fallacy. It is how justice in America works. It is how we determine things to be true or at least, likely true. Asking me to prove something/someone DOESN'T exist is absurd. I cannot prove that bigfoot doesn't exist, but that does not validate bigfoot belief. I cannot prove that space-traveling aliens don't exist, but that does not validate space-traveling alien belief. I cannot prove Jesus, precisely as reported in the bible, did not exist, but that does not validate belief in him. I cannot disprove god, nor do I have to. Just as in court. The defendant does not have to prove his innocence. The prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty. He is presumed innocent until proven guilty, based on the evidence. Same goes for god claims with me (and literally every atheist I know personally). The religious are the prosecution. They are the ones making the claim of guilt of existence. They are claiming god exists. I do not have to prove god's innocence. I merely have to be able to refute the arguments used. If the religious/prosecution fails to establish, beyond a reasonable doubt, that god exists, then he is to be presumed innocent of existing.


Now, again, if somebody wants to believe, they are free to with no qualms or harsh words from me. If you and I were sitting and talking face to face and you mentioned you are religious, cool. Good for you. The woman I'm currently seeing is Catholic. It really means nothing to me. However, the second you say "I should believe", I'm going to have to take you task for it because you are claiming certainty that god exists, otherwise, there would be no reason for you to attempt to get me to believe, right? Just as if you claimed that I should go jump off a bridge into a shallow river, I'm going to say, "fug that. no. That is stupid". Sure, I could probably word it differently, but it means the same thing. It's harder to be understanding because we don't all have a real personal report between us here. We are effectively strangers. While you may be able to take hearing that from a personal friend who you have a mutual understanding with how you speak to each other, you can't have that with me, and I get it. I just try to treat everybody the same, so I sort of just speak how I speak. If it ever comes off as unwarranted mockery of you as an individual, then please, forgive me. That is not the intent.

Thanks for your kindness and consideration, as well as your thoughtful response on this. I actually just got up from a nap, lol... That being said, again, to your first point, you are correct in that is how things work in our society and within the physical realm for the most part. But, my point is that while that may be the Earthly standard, it is not a spiritual one, because if you were able to present evidence of certainty that God exists to non-believers, that would negate the point of having "faith." Faith is essential to believing, and if you believe, then you open yourself up to evidence that God is real - like I have experienced. And I'm not just talking about getting goosebumps in church or gaining direction from him. I have saw with my own eyes how He brought life to something that the world proclaimed to be seconds from death, and it isn't like any other story. I experienced it. I was in it. And the things I prayed for and believed in came to fruition when I was told none of them would. But, it is a story better suited for a face to face conversation, as you said. But, my point remains... From your perspective, I understand the burden of proof, but when talking about a supernatural power/being, it can't be applied because the evidence isn't physical... In the experience I was referring to, a physical transformation (against all odds) took place and that is indeed evidence to me because it was directly linked to what I was spiritually praying for... It was not random. It was not coincidence. It happened in successive events of an extreme nature - life or death.

Again, that is something better suited for a face-to-face conversation, so maybe we'll run into each other at a Huddle event one day or something, lol. I know I can't convince someone to believe if they don't want to or feel a need to, but I am just speaking up for my beliefs because of how they are marginalized on a daily basis in the tinderbox. I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone, I just intend to demonstrate why I believe, and I know if anyone else experienced what I experienced than they would feel the same. But, I'm not trying to tell you what you should believe, that's up to each individual, and I respect whatever their stance is as long as its respectful of mine as well. So, I don't want that to get confused - I'm not trying to force anyone to believe or tell them what to believe, I'm just presenting my case when I'm typing about it on the huddle.

But as you said, and I actually wanted to make a thread about it the other day... That's what is so jacked up about the internet and the tinderbox specifically... 99% of the things said in here are either misunderstood or so completely inflammatory that if the people saying them said them in real life they would have no social life or any friends whatsoever. The medium of the internet allows all of us to be inconsiderate of others with little or no consequence and often times that gets in the way of the true message we're trying to convey or the dialogue we're trying to hold. As you said, if everyone in this forum were sitting at a table, in person, talking with one another, I know it would be much more productive.

[Proudiddy]

that wasn't targeted at you

My bad, I thought you had posted the "ridiculous" thing with my quote.

Good posts though man...

[CCS]

I enjoy the idea that some guy named Jesus once said "I AM GOD, FOLLOW ME" and for whatever reason people did, and 1,000s of years later they still do.

[pstall]

Its the man. Not the external.

[thennek]

As far as "prophecy" goes....you do realize that the OT was around during the time of the writers of the NT, right? It's not hard to make the pieces fit when you have the foundation already laid out. It's as if a buddy of mine that passed away was writing a book on the life and times of Saddam Hussein, but didn't live long enough to write of Saddam's last 10 years. Well, all I have to do is just pick up where he left off....and throw in that Saddam was actually a ballerina and an avid Brittany Spears fan. It isn't true. Or, same example, but he dies before 9/11 and let's say he predicts that there will be a massive attack on US soil from the Middle East. In New York. On skyscrapers. And I just so happen to finish his writings and pencil in the details. Except, it was actually a rocket filled with kittens that hit the twin towers. Is part of it true? Sure. A flying craft hit the twin towers. However, the details are false. In thousands of years, it is possible that some people might believe that. And they would be silly.

I appreciate your well thought out response. It's obvious you & I are in a different place with what we believe. No sense in disputing back & forth. It's a better conversation in person vs. the internet. Studying the Bible, and acting on & believing in what it says has changed my life. And I have no doubt that what I believe is true because of this personal experience. Have a good day, and I appreciate the conversation.

[longtriad]

I enjoy the idea that some guy named Jesus once said "I AM GOD, FOLLOW ME" and for whatever reason people did, and 1,000s of years later they still do.

Might have been his "magic". Walking on water and making blind people see. Oh yea, there was that raising people from death, including himself. Yea, that would have fooled many.

[longtriad]

These are very interesting reads. I am building a library as an inheritance to my children and I will definitely include that book in my collection. I have studied the Irish slave history in America as well. You might be interested to know that part of the reason this is not so well known is because the slave traders made no distinction between Blacks and Irish. Slavery came in many forms during this time period and no story should go untold. I hope that your reason for bringing this up was to honor the people that went through it and not to somehow denigrate the blacks that went through it as well.

Not at all. But I just want to make the point that all ansestors suffered. You can dwell on that or move on. I chose to move on.

[Panthers_Lover]

Do those doubting the existence of Jesus also doubt the existence of Muhammad?

[rodeo]

Do those doubting the existence of Jesus also doubt the existence of Muhammad?

His existence is just as dubious as Jesus'. There's a reason archeology is largely forbidden in places where he was purported to have lived.

[longtriad]

There is 0 historical or archeological evidence for jewish slavery in Egypt.

Look at this.

http://search.mywebs...t=kwd&tpr=jrel2

[rodeo]

Look at this.

http://search.mywebs...t=kwd&tpr=jrel2

http://news.discovery.com/history/ancient-egypt/pyramids-tombs-giza-egypt.htm

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4191

http://anthropology.msu.edu/anp455-us12/2012/07/26/week-4-did-slaves-build-the-pyramids/

http://www.omg-facts.com/History/The-Pyramids-Were-Not-Built-By-Slaves/50312

http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/travel/egypt/pyramids-at-giza/

http://harvardmagazine.com/2003/07/who-built-the-pyramids-html?page=all