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The Economy is Horrible....


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#31 Kurb

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 09:45 AM

Absolutely. A lot of the common complaints have a lot of merit, and the old system of unions was antiquated and never did catch up with the times or the new economy.

That being said the fact that they were destroyed without any replacement is a big reason for wage stagnation/decline.


I think we are close to agreeing on something today...

#32 mmmbeans

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 09:49 AM

I think it's important to mention Unions aren't exactly choir boys either.

I see their need, but bad apples on both sides etc etc.


Choir boys compared to what? Union carbide killed upwards of 16000 people in india. Ge polluted central new york for the rest of eternity. Nike effectively runs off slave labor, halliburton, boeing and lockheed are war profiteers, exxon and bp destroyed entire ecosystems due to outright negligence. Monsanto is single handedly destroying our agricultural industry through lobbying and lawsuits...

But yea, sometimes unions can be a bit obnoxious.

#33 Kurb

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 09:52 AM

Choir boys compared to what? Union carbide killed upwards of 16000 people in india. Ge polluted central new york for the rest of eternity. Nike effectively runs off slave labor, halliburton, boeing and lockheed are war profiteers, exxon and bp destroyed entire ecosystems due to outright negligence. Monsanto is single handedly destroying our agricultural industry through lobbying and lawsuits...

But yea, sometimes unions can be a bit obnoxious.


And generally ran by organized crime for decades.

All your points are correct also.

#34 mmmbeans

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 09:55 AM

And generally ran by organized crime for decades.

All your points are correct also.


as were large portions of everything else... the point is... unions are always derided for being unsavory (which they often are.) My question is, can one tangle with multi-national conglomerates and corrupt politicians without being unsavory?

#35 g5jamz

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 09:56 AM

The old thought process of having x amount of workers to do x amount of work when manufacturing engineering can improve productivity and reduce workers needed isn't very uniony. Sometimes we have to realize that through technology, some jobs SHOULD be eliminated.

Unions created to protect from poor management IS needed Unions created to protect outdated jobs AREN'T needed. Unions created to protect worker safety where government oversight is failing...needed. Unions created to simply force workers to pay dues that then go to political candidates coffers and get kickbacks/insane pension deals...not needed. Lot more to cover, but when states in cahoots with unions wrote compulsory union membership laws...that's when crap got bad. Choice is good. Even here in North Carolina you can unionize...you just have to have a secret ballot and things like that. Something that scares unions I guess because they don't know who to strongarm.

#36 g5jamz

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 09:59 AM

As long as we as consumers demand high technology for a fraction of the price...we will rely on low manufacturing cost countries to produce the products.

Want to answer a tough question.

How could one ever compete against labor costs overseas with US-based workers. Forget nationalistic pride with regard to quality...just be honest and how do you compete when a competitor will easily do the same. The manufacturing abilities of China is really the top in the world.

#37 Panthro

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:01 AM

explain how increased productivity now for the first time is not not associated with decreased hours and making more.

#38 g5jamz

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:04 AM

double negative...stopped reading

#39 Delhommey

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:04 AM

The old thought process of having x amount of workers to do x amount of work when manufacturing engineering can improve productivity and reduce workers needed isn't very uniony. Sometimes we have to realize that through technology, some jobs SHOULD be eliminated.

Unions created to protect from poor management IS needed Unions created to protect outdated jobs AREN'T needed. Unions created to protect worker safety where government oversight is failing...needed. Unions created to simply force workers to pay dues that then go to political candidates coffers and get kickbacks/insane pension deals...not needed. Lot more to cover, but when states in cahoots with unions wrote compulsory union membership laws...that's when crap got bad. Choice is good. Even here in North Carolina you can unionize...you just have to have a secret ballot and things like that. Something that scares unions I guess because they don't know who to strongarm.


Companies do the exact same things with non compete clauses and tax kickbacks, but I'd wager you use much nicer language for them.

End of the day due to the gains in productivity some type of socialism is the only true way forward. That or keep things as they are and work your way towards a bloody revolution and the overturning of capitalism as we know it.

#40 g5jamz

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:12 AM

Companies do the exact same things with non compete clauses and tax kickbacks, but I'd wager you use much nicer language for them.

End of the day due to the gains in productivity some type of socialism is the only true way forward. That or keep things as they are and work your way towards a bloody revolution and the overturning of capitalism as we know it.


I don't support corporate welfare either. Government should not be in the business of picking winners/losers. See green energy companies. Banks vs other banks.

You can pretend that human nature would lead us to a socialist/everyone equal utopia, but if thousands of civilizations have taught us...the more you battle human nature, the more it simply creates a larger divide between the haves/havenots. You allow human nature to simply play out and see where people end up. That's life. Some make it. Some don't. Some are the prom queens. Some aren't. Some make billions. Some don't. In fact...capitalism has proven to be the best scenario in history that brings relative poverty UP.

#41 Delhommey

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:36 AM

When left unchecked, capitalism is horrible and ends up with revolution inducing inequalities as the winners simply change the rules to keep out the losers.

And government is always in the business of subsidization. It has to be to nurture new industries to health until they become profitable. You're currently using a product that was developed using government subsidies for it's very core connecting to an internet via a cable network that was all created or heavily subsidized by government.

#42 g5jamz

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:22 AM

We aren't Albania.

#43 Delhommey

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:29 AM

Um, ok.

Now, back to the discussion at hand.

#44 g5jamz

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 01:23 PM

Um, ok.

Now, back to the discussion at hand.


Read PJ O'Rourke's "Eat the Rich".

#45 GOOGLE RON PAUL

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 06:16 PM

O'Rourke uses wit and an entire lack of mathematics (except in rare glances for parody) to claim that economics is something we all do every day, and only economists seem to find it difficult.


lol


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