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#21 mav1234

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 09:44 AM

threads like this are why I continue to visit the tinderbox, props to everyone for providing very useful information and discussion

#22 natty

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 12:51 PM

It's been a loooong time since I studied Marx so I can't talk extensively about his ideas but I do have 2 points to make.

1 - Anyone who refuses to learn about him or his ideas are admitting they are forming their opinions from ignorance. It's not like if you study Marx and his work that you instantly become a communist heathen. He is considered one of the most influential people in history and it could be argued he is the most influential person ever. So to not learn his ideas is just...silly.

I find the cold war/red scare part of our history fascinating. People's idea of communism comes from the perspective of war and fear. Our collective reaction to the threat might not have always been rational but it was natural. The government always framed things as a war on communism or to stop the 'spread of communism' when everyone knows it was against the spread of soviet influence. It's subtle but different, and those are the small things that keep cold wars cold. Yet we still this insanely strong association with communism and the soviet union. Which brings me to my 2nd point...

2 - What we generally refer to as communism is not Marxism, it's Leninism. I think other have said in this thread, but it's important to note that Marx did not really define what communism is. He fleshed out the ideas, but not the mechanics. He constructed the science but not the engineering. So Lenin did and it resulted in an authoritarian state. Communism is just and idea, leninism is just a particular implementation of that idea. We have no reason to be scared of an idea. But, given our past and the unbreakable bond between communism and the soviet union, we do have a natural(but not rational) fear.

#23 Delhommey

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:19 PM

The internet and tools like 3D printers have made the distributors of surplus increasingly irrelevant, even though our economy does not yet recognize that. The production and distribution of goods will become more and more democratized to where creating products and distributing them will be just as simple as creating and distributing music or movies are today.

Don't believe me? It's already happening:

http://www.wired.co....duces-physibles

The only thing left to exploit in that scenario are raw materials and energy, and we'll be that much closer to moving past the idea of scarcity. Without scarcity, capitalism as Marx knew it ceases to exist.

#24 Happy Panther

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:51 AM

I haven't read Marx but it always felt like Atlas Shrugged...a really interesting ideological exercise that has no chance of working in real life. I agree with his ideas that being the worker sucks. Anyone who has sat in their cube wondering why they put up with the same crap everyday can identify with this. But in modern society most "workers" have the ability to move up over time which gets them closer to the capital and means of production. Marx commune society makes sense in world where there is a dictatorial boss reigning over 100s of workers making pennies. Like sweatshops in Laos or something.

Cuba is probably the closest to a marxist state, right?

#25 Kurb

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:56 AM

Marx commune society makes sense in world where there is a dictatorial boss reigning over 100s of workers making pennies. Like sweatshops in Laos or something.

Cuba is probably the closest to a marxist state, right?



I don't think so, but again I am a novice at this stuff.


From what I can tell Marxism would be everyone working together for a common benefit, without the overpowering dictator.

Thus Cuba/Laos would be more a Leninist type of communism.


I could be very wrong here tho.

#26 Kurb

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:58 AM

The internet and tools like 3D printers have made the distributors of surplus increasingly irrelevant, even though our economy does not yet recognize that. The production and distribution of goods will become more and more democratized to where creating products and distributing them will be just as simple as creating and distributing music or movies are today.

Don't believe me? It's already happening:

http://www.wired.co....duces-physibles

The only thing left to exploit in that scenario are raw materials and energy, and we'll be that much closer to moving past the idea of scarcity. Without scarcity, capitalism as Marx knew it ceases to exist.


When 3D printing starts making Real Usable parts for machines and such things will get REALLY interesting.

#27 Happy Panther

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 09:01 AM

I don't think so, but again I am a novice at this stuff.


From what I can tell Marxism would be everyone working together for a common benefit, without the overpowering dictator.

Thus Cuba/Laos would be more a Leninist type of communism.


I could be very wrong here tho.


Yeah i read that modern communist states would have been rejected by Marx. But Cuba certainly thinks it is a Marxist state. There is such a thing as Marxist-Leninism too. Apparently.

Here is their constitution which actually references Marx multiple times.

http://www.constitut...onstitution.pdf


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