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Why we don't actually follow the Steeler model


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#61 panthers55

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 12:29 PM

The steelers have benefitted from a dominant defense courtesy of Dick Lebeau. They really don't have that great of a system and have made quite a few mistakes along the way. On offense they are not very good and not paying Walllace was part of the reason they sucked. They were 21st this year after being 12th last year. If the system is to have the best defense in the league and go average of below on offense then I can live with that and we did under Fox much of the time here. But Pittsburgh is not dumping all their vets while they are still useful. And it isn't as if they aren't paying their players a bunch as well. Look at this list:

Roethlisburger- 8 years- 102 million
Woodley- 6 years- 61 million- linebacker
Timmons- 6 years- 51 million-linebacker

So between 2 linebackers they have 112 million tied up in cap space

Antonio Brown- 6 years- 43 million wide receiver This is why they didn't pay Wallace- they have a ton already tied up.

How about Heath Miller- 6 years-35 million tied up into a tight end.

Or how about Polamalu- who has a 4 year 36 million dolllar contract for a guy who is great when he plays but he has been hurt for the past 2 years.

http://www.spotrac.c...burgh-steelers/

Go back and look at some of those numbers and tell me how great their system is or how we should follow them into even more cap hell. Sure they won 2 superbowls but it hasn't been the system as it has been the fantastic defense which will suffer when LeBeau goes unless his assistants can pick things up.

#62 klumme

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 04:46 PM

We don't follow the Steeler model....not how Pitt builds overall.


Well I agree... But in this offseason we have done exactly what the Steelers are doing so again - odd example.

#63 CRA

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 05:18 PM

The steelers have benefitted from a dominant defense courtesy of Dick Lebeau. They really don't have that great of a system and have made quite a few mistakes along the way. On offense they are not very good and not paying Walllace was part of the reason they sucked. They were 21st this year after being 12th last year. If the system is to have the best defense in the league and go average of below on offense then I can live with that and we did under Fox much of the time here. But Pittsburgh is not dumping all their vets while they are still useful. And it isn't as if they aren't paying their players a bunch as well. Look at this list:

Roethlisburger- 8 years- 102 million
Woodley- 6 years- 61 million- linebacker
Timmons- 6 years- 51 million-linebacker

So between 2 linebackers they have 112 million tied up in cap space

Antonio Brown- 6 years- 43 million wide receiver This is why they didn't pay Wallace- they have a ton already tied up.

How about Heath Miller- 6 years-35 million tied up into a tight end.

Or how about Polamalu- who has a 4 year 36 million dolllar contract for a guy who is great when he plays but he has been hurt for the past 2 years.

http://www.spotrac.c...burgh-steelers/

Go back and look at some of those numbers and tell me how great their system is or how we should follow them into even more cap hell. Sure they won 2 superbowls but it hasn't been the system as it has been the fantastic defense which will suffer when LeBeau goes unless his assistants can pick things up.


Not sure what you are arguing here....

Never said they are dumping all their vets. But there is a reason why they stay strong on D. A model that has lead to them being winners even if you are unimpressed. They aren't afraid to dump their stars....see Harrison, Porter, Gildon, Lloyd, Greene. (Credit to Gantt for his tweet on it).

All teams give out big contracts. It's the NFL.




As far as offense. They changed what they did on offense last year. It doesn't work overnight in terms of having the right pieces. Wallace doesn't fit ideally....so they paid Brown and are sending him packing. Doesn't matter how talented Wallace may be....he didn't fit. We on the other hand will argue that square peg needs to stay here


#64 Anybodyhome

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 05:23 PM

Williams was such that the Panthers needed to draft his replacement within 2 years? Please.
Tolbert is a FB.
Newton is a pocket-passing QB who also happens to have running skills and speed.

7/29/2011: Signed a five-year, $43 million contract. The deal contains $21 million guaranteed, including a $16 million signing bonus and $5 million of Williams' second-year base salary.
2013: $4.75 million
2014: $5.75 million
2015: $6.75 million
2016: Free Agent

This to me looks like every other Hurney contract in that Williams will probably be cut following the 2013 or 2014 season, not before this.

#65 CRA

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 05:52 PM

Williams was such that the Panthers needed to draft his replacement within 2 years? Please.
Tolbert is a FB.
Newton is a pocket-passing QB who also happens to have running skills and speed.

7/29/2011: Signed a five-year, $43 million contract. The deal contains $21 million guaranteed, including a $16 million signing bonus and $5 million of Williams' second-year base salary.
2013: $4.75 million
2014: $5.75 million
2015: $6.75 million
2016: Free Agent

This to me looks like every other Hurney contract in that Williams will probably be cut following the 2013 or 2014 season, not before this.

Reality is Carolina spent a 1st round draft pick in 2008 on Stewart. They don't have to "replace" Williams if he was cut.

Tolbert is a RB with a FB title. Go watch him in SD. Then watch old tape of Neal in SD. Neal was a FB. Tolbert a RB in a FB body.

Newton is a dual threat. Simple and plain. Arguably the biggest mismatch the league has seen to date and most dangerous aspect of our rush attack.

Williams is a luxury roleplayer RB at this stage....paid like a featured RB on a run first team. He may be good in his role but it makes having him silly at his current rate AND based on what we have to run the ball without him

#66 Anybodyhome

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:48 PM

Reality is Carolina spent a 1st round draft pick in 2008 on Stewart. They don't have to "replace" Williams if he was cut.

Tolbert is a RB with a FB title. Go watch him in SD. Then watch old tape of Neal in SD. Neal was a FB. Tolbert a RB in a FB body.

Newton is a dual threat. Simple and plain. Arguably the biggest mismatch the league has seen to date and most dangerous aspect of our rush attack.

Williams is a luxury roleplayer RB at this stage....paid like a featured RB on a run first team. He may be good in his role but it makes having him silly at his current rate AND based on what we have to run the ball without him


Guess we have different opinions. Been watching Tolbert since he was in college, so I don't need any pointers there.

But perhaps redefining what a RB's role in Carolina is, because is newton is to be regarded as if he were a RB as you suggest, there's no reason to keep Stewart or Williams; just go pick up some scrub off the bottom of the FA pile.

Williams is paid like a featured RB on a run first team because that's what the Panthers were when they gave him the deal.

Newton a dual threat? Maybe for another 2-3 years tops or an injury puts it to and end.

#67 Mr. Scot

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 10:01 PM

It would actually be more correct to say that Marty Hurney didn't follow the Steelers model.

We've got nothing to go by yet as far as Gettleman except his words. His stated philosophy about player acquisition is that you select players that fit the system you've established (this as opposed to the Patriots system which acquires talent and changes what they run based on who they have).

If he's made any definitive statements about how they decide who to keep and who to cut - other than just talking about correctly evaluating value - I don't remember them. You can infer a little by the moves made so far, but only very little because we're in transition from a mess left by the prior guy in charge.

We'll know more in time.

#68 CRA

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 06:25 AM

Guess we have different opinions. Been watching Tolbert since he was in college, so I don't need any pointers there.

But perhaps redefining what a RB's role in Carolina is, because is newton is to be regarded as if he were a RB as you suggest, there's no reason to keep Stewart or Williams; just go pick up some scrub off the bottom of the FA pile.

Williams is paid like a featured RB on a run first team because that's what the Panthers were when they gave him the deal.

Newton a dual threat? Maybe for another 2-3 years tops or an injury puts it to and end.


2-3 years from now Newton will be nearing his physical prime. That doesn't suggest to be a time period for him to become a one dimensional QB.

Panthers have never been a hand it off to your RB and smash the ball team one down of DeAngelo's new deal. We paid our older 1st round RB a silly deal after trashing our old identity....

Lorenzo Neal averaged 2 yards carry and 5 per reception. He was a best of a FB. He was a beast of a lead blocker. Tolbert isn't that. He averages 4 per carry and 9 per reception....and is at his best as a 3rd down RB. He is a FB in name who can spot lot in some FB roles

#69 panthers55

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:07 AM

Not sure what you are arguing here....

Never said they are dumping all their vets. But there is a reason why they stay strong on D. A model that has lead to them being winners even if you are unimpressed. They aren't afraid to dump their stars....see Harrison, Porter, Gildon, Lloyd, Greene. (Credit to Gantt for his tweet on it).

All teams give out big contracts. It's the NFL.




As far as offense. They changed what they did on offense last year. It doesn't work overnight in terms of having the right pieces. Wallace doesn't fit ideally....so they paid Brown and are sending him packing. Doesn't matter how talented Wallace may be....he didn't fit. We on the other hand will argue that square peg needs to stay here


Pittsburgh is in cap hell because they didn't do a good job managing their contracts and overpaid for talent no different than us. They are dumping Harrison for the same reason we dumped Gamble which is to get under the cap. They have also dumped vets because their production has declined. Hurney did his thing and is gone because of it. But I don't think the Steeler model is any better than the Giants model which is what Gettleman helped develop.

#70 CRA

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:32 AM

Pittsburgh is in cap hell because they didn't do a good job managing their contracts and overpaid for talent no different than us. They are dumping Harrison for the same reason we dumped Gamble which is to get under the cap. They have also dumped vets because their production has declined. Hurney did his thing and is gone because of it. But I don't think the Steeler model is any better than the Giants model which is what Gettleman helped develop.

Cap reasons are ONE reason they are dumping him. They have proven they part with their stars for more than just that....again, don't get too caught up in one player you miss the big picture point. There are many more players to point to.

Both models are better than our model....and until Gettlemen proves different I will asume we follow Richardson's model. Until Gettlemen goes to work he basically hasn't done anything to date Hurney wouldn't of done.

#71 panthers55

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:29 AM

Cap reasons are ONE reason they are dumping him. They have proven they part with their stars for more than just that....again, don't get too caught up in one player you miss the big picture point. There are many more players to point to.

Both models are better than our model....and until Gettlemen proves different I will asume we follow Richardson's model. Until Gettlemen goes to work he basically hasn't done anything to date Hurney wouldn't of done.


If your logic is that Hurney followed Richardson's model therefore Gettleman will follow the same model I think you are missing the fact that there were a lot of things that Hurney did well. He drafted well in the first round and again in lower rounds. He was very good at finding guys in free agency to fill spots on the roster when injuries hit. The thing he did was not just make big contracts but guarantee too much money. Sure that is a problem that is biting us in the butt and was the main reason he was fired. But I give the benefit of the doubt to the new GM until he give reason to doubt him taking a half full approach. You are obviously a half empty kind of guy and that is fine as well. I just don't choose to be around people like that too often as I find their negativity is contagious. I deal with it enough in my career to not choose it in my free time.

We will see how he handles things. I think he will be fine and you are more cynical. Both are legitimate approaches.

#72 Anybodyhome

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:50 PM

2-3 years from now Newton will be nearing his physical prime. That doesn't suggest to be a time period for him to become a one dimensional QB.

Panthers have never been a hand it off to your RB and smash the ball team one down of DeAngelo's new deal. We paid our older 1st round RB a silly deal after trashing our old identity....

Lorenzo Neal averaged 2 yards carry and 5 per reception. He was a best of a FB. He was a beast of a lead blocker. Tolbert isn't that. He averages 4 per carry and 9 per reception....and is at his best as a 3rd down RB. He is a FB in name who can spot lot in some FB roles


Didn't suggest he become one dimensional. I am suggesting he won't be nearly as much multi-dimensional a couple years down the road.

Panthers signed Stephen Davis alongside DeFoster to play smashmouth football all the way to the Super Bowl 10 years ago- they were a run-first team then. But that was a different era in the game and has no place in this conversation.

Odd you should mention the Panthers not being a run-first team, which they were as I pointed out above, then go on about Mike Tolbert. Tell me Mike Tolbert isn't used to soften a defense to open the passing game- the entire premise of smashmouth, run-first football.

#73 SauceBoss

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:17 PM

CRA is right, but again you have fanboys overrating Dwill....


I've reached my negative voting limit for the day, just so you know.

#74 CRA

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:18 PM

Odd you should mention the Panthers not being a run-first team, which they were as I pointed out above, then go on about Mike Tolbert. Tell me Mike Tolbert isn't used to soften a defense to open the passing game- the entire premise of smashmouth, run-first football.

They have been a Newton lead team.....not a smash mouth run first team (which traditionally implies running your RBs).

Our RBs/FBs ran the ball 323 times last year....Cam passed it 485 times.
- 2011 our RBs/FBs had less at 307 carries and Cam passed it 517 times.
<and Carolina had the lead in the 2nd half of most of those losses>

Tolbert has been underutilized....hardly ever receiving carries inbetween the 20s. He had a mere 54 total carries last year....bulk was redzone. Then again, it is impossible to properly utilize any of our RBs bc there isn't the opportunity bc of so many

#75 jtnc

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:23 PM

I've reached my negative voting limit for the day, just so you know.


As if I give a poo, go fug off.


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