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Inconvenient Truth GM Edition(Hurney vs Gettleman)


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#61 panther4life

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 06:23 PM

I'm not attacking your post. I'm just providing my 2 cents much like yourself. However, the reason the new guys brought in are light years ahead is because the people we have signed have either had some success or experience to share. A quick search of most of our recent free agents are a hodge podge of nobodies that were cheap and seemingly just to pacify fans because they were areas of need. I'm not all that mad at hurney or excited a out gettelman. I guess my point is this is what we have and I can relate with this guy because he made the moves most of us wanted made. In the past too many fa periods passed with unfulfilled wishes. Lets just agree to support our new GM until he gives us reason not to.


We are on the same page, if this was a tailgate conversation it wouldn't seem as tense.
Message boards are funny like that because you have your pie ***** posters who like to be snarky and poo without bringing anything of substance to the table amongst other silly stuff but I digress.

Anyway heres a cool story for you:

I just listened to your podcast with Szoke and thought you did an excellent job btw. Did you know about him adopting the homeless kid? Saw a link to that from Bill Voths twitter and somehow ended up on your podcast after coming to see if it was posted on the huddle already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GVcQ2c39YY

#62 carolina-chuck

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 06:29 PM

I NEVER TYPE IN ALL CAPS BUT BEFORE SOME OF YOU BLINDLY RAGE I NEED YOUR ATTENTION:

**THIS THREAD IS SIMPLY STATING I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY MOVES MADE THAT DISTINGUISH GETTLEMAN FROM HURNEY YET**

Maybe some of you guys can enlighten me on why I am wrong or maybe just maybe some of you will confirm the sentiments I have to be true. I am going to post rebuttals that I see forthcoming so I don't have to come back and address them later.

What changes have been made than can be attributed solely to Gettleman at this point?
He has the same head coach and the entire front office has remained intact from the scouts to the cap manager, to the directors of scouting and pro personnel.

So far Gettleman has added these guys from other teams:
Chase Blackburn
Drayton Florence
Tedd Ginn Jr.
Mike Mitchell
D.J Moore
Colin Cole
James Shaw
^^^
Can anyone of you say these are brilliant signings that would have never happened if Hurney was here? No you can't because they have not played a down for us yet and they are the exact bottom tier guys many would bitch about if Hurney was the one to sign them. It won't stop some of you from rejoicing about these just like it did not stop many of you who were jizzing over Nakumara signing last offseason.

Retained from the previous regime were
Dwan Edwards
Captain Munnerlyn
Jordan Senn
Derek Anderson
Ben Hartstock
Richie Brockel
^^^
minus Captain-all of those guys were brought in from other teams by Hurney. Hurney never paid those guys a dime more than Gettleman signed them for.

Some would argue that Hurney would have paid way too much for Munnerlyn if given the chance.
Really, as evidenced by what? Last 2 times I remember Nickel corners chasing more money than they deserved(Richard Marshall and Ricky Manning Jr.) Hurney let them walk.

As a matter of a fact many players were allowed to walk in the past for more money(previous to 2011) contrary to popular belief on here.
Mushin Muhammad,Will Witherspoon,Doug Evans, Deon Grant,Deshaun Foster, Marlon Mcree,and many others but thats just some names all of you should recognize.

2011 WAS JERRY RICHARDSON'S FAULT
Yes it was. He tanked 2010 and made us the worst team in football. Then to make matters worse the 90% of the handful of good players we had all became free agents in the same year! Hurney never let more than 2 core players hit the market at the same time ever before this. 6 of our 10 players worth keeping becoming free agents all at once was a major clusterfug that JR created and he's loving hearing the fan base blame Marty for his decisions.

In addition to the bad timing do you not think JR alienated a lot players without his lockout pie charts and such? The worst contracts are from the players who were the elite at their position in free agency that year (Charles Johnson, Jon Beason, and Deangelo WIlliams) and it wasn't even close.

Some of you need to wake up and smell the coffee and realize the obvious that happened form 2009-11.

"Yea well Gettleman is a genius, he knows how to play hardball and get these players to sign 1 year contracts while he try's them out".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If only the above was unique to Gettleman and not a league wide phenomenon due to the flat cap. Hell I have read some silly reports suggest collusion amongst the owners because of this.

Btw, for you guys love him for signing captain to a 1 year deal, must have forgotten the original offer was for 3 years and more money. Just got lucky that he tested the market and we signed D.J Moore while he bullshitted around.

"But Gettleman got us out of cap hell and still managed to make some signings happen..jeez can't please everyone I guess"..

I am not dissatisfied with the jobe he's done so far. Just not overly surpised by any of the moves made either, nor do they scream to me ohhh yea we def. have a new GM now.

"P4L your an idiot if you can't see that Gettleman dug us out of cap hell and signed some brilliant new pieces and kept Huney's lucky finds"

First of all cutting Gamble and Ron Edwards were no brainers that were alley oops from Hurney/Rob Rogers as they did not cause pushing any dead money into the future and save 10.4 million alone. Fug according to Clayton in feb. were only 11.8 over to begin with.

Secondly the rest of the room was created by robbing peter to pay paul. Yep all the restructures that saved us money just pushed that money into the future cap hits. This is what originally coined the name "HURNEY MAGIC" before it became a sarcastic dig on him. They ended up being no brainers for both sides when evaluating them logically.

I'll leave you with this: All I am trying to say is quit over exaggerating whether it be in your praise of Gettleman or your hatred for Hurney. Way too early to make any firm judgments yet.

Gettleman has not fuged up on anything yet, so naturally that gives him a leg up on Hurney who had many shortcomings over his 10 years here. At the same token he has not done anything to give anyone reason to believe that he his as great as some of your are making him out to be, and in all fairness its too early for him to have earned major praise.

Remember how many of us(I know I did anyway) were pumped about the Rivera hire and the future of the franchise before we even played a down in 2011? Fast foward to 2 years later and I was leading the bandwagon to have his ass canned. .........Not saying things with Gettleman will end up the same way, just saying experience should tell us that it's too early to judge him for better or worse at this point.


Good post.

#63 CRA

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 07:03 PM

tl;dr

(If you don't see a difference already between Hurney and Gettleman, you are beyond help.)

In fairness...Gettlemen hasn't been here long enough to show he is better or worse than Hurney. The past few weeks do nothing really for the comparison...

People also want to compare Hurney at his worst (which you can easily argue was Richardson hand impacting it all)...to really Gettlemen doing little as some great contrast between the two.

Hurney would have cut Gamble and restructured Gross most likely.....and Hurney could always bring in no name and rejects to fill spots.

Gettlemen will show what he is over the next 3 years.....as of now...he hasn't shown much of anything.

#64 L-TownCat

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 07:13 PM

We are on the same page, if this was a tailgate conversation it wouldn't seem as tense.
Message boards are funny like that because you have your pie ***** posters who like to be snarky and poo without bringing anything of substance to the table amongst other silly stuff but I digress.

Anyway heres a cool story for you:

I just listened to your podcast with Szoke and thought you did an excellent job btw. Did you know about him adopting the homeless kid? Saw a link to that from Bill Voths twitter and somehow ended up on your podcast after coming to see if it was posted on the huddle already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GVcQ2c39YY


I did not know that. Thanks for the clip. If/when we get him back on the show ill bring that up. Thanks for the kudos! I try not to be snarky but sometimes it just comes off that way. Thanks for listening to the podcast. Always appreciated.

#65 CRA

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 07:22 PM

Also...lets be real...

Overwhelming majority of this board defended Hurney's full retard campaign near his end.

A lot the Gettlemen praise falls in line with the "he is our guy so has to be great" mindset. Same mindset that made Nakamura a great move....same mindset that makes some of these less than impressive moves by Gettlemen genius.

#66 TheRumGone

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 07:28 PM

Also...lets be real...

Overwhelming majority of this board defended Hurney's full retard campaign near his end.

A lot the Gettlemen praise falls in line with the "he is our guy so has to be great" mindset. Same mindset that made Nakamura a great move....same mindset that makes some of these less than impressive moves by Gettlemen genius.


What would you have done? I'm not trying to be a dick, just want to know.

#67 CRA

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 07:33 PM

What would you have done? I'm not trying to be a dick, just want to know.


Done about what? Gettlemen thus far?

I am not saying I would have done anything different than Gettlemen thus far...but you could easily argue outside of the Anderson cut Hurney-dawg could easily of mirrored the rest.

#68 TheRumGone

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 07:39 PM

same mindset that makes some of these less than impressive moves by Gettlemen genius.


That's why i asked, but you said you probably wouldn't have done anything different. I explained that people were so down on Hurney that people were probably over-exaggerating about Gettleman, using terms like "genius" or "impressive" when in actuality they are what good GM's do. We were starved for a good GM.

And I don't see how Hurney would have mirrored these moves, based on the facts.

#69 Saxist Fed

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:05 PM

I appreciate that Dave has wiggled about 22 million in the other direction this offseason without making any huge moves. 16 million over now around 6 million under.

There's no need to compare him yet or overanalyze anything in regards to Hurney.

#70 Lumps

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:14 PM

Also...lets be real...

Overwhelming majority of this board defended Hurney's full retard campaign near his end.



Hahah so true. I always got flamed bad for saying he sucks for a couple years here.

The biggest counter-argument was: Hurney never misses a first pick lolol

#71 CRA

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:28 PM

That's why i asked, but you said you probably wouldn't have done anything different. I explained that people were so down on Hurney that people were probably over-exaggerating about Gettleman, using terms like "genius" or "impressive" when in actuality they are what good GM's do. We were starved for a good GM.

And I don't see how Hurney would have mirrored these moves, based on the facts.


Maybe not mirrored the exact guys brought in but a comparable caliber of guys brought in....after he made the Gmable cut and some obvious restructures. Only the Anderson cut appears something outside Hurney's wheelhouse.

I don't think Hurney was a bad GM.....until Richardson put Fox in that weird window, then Richardson dictated how we handled the lockout, etc.

Gettlemen certainly hasn't proven to be as good as Hurney WAS when he first got here

#72 CRA

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:31 PM

Hahah so true. I always got flamed bad for saying he sucks for a couple years here.

The biggest counter-argument was: Hurney never misses a first pick lolol

Hahah so true. I always got flamed bad for saying he sucks for a couple years here.

The biggest counter-argument was: Hurney never misses a first pick lolol


Yep, people raved about Hurney's full retard moves overall....we just HAD to keep Double Trouble together, we just HAD to overpay CJ to keep him, James Anderson really WAS worth the cash bc he did have all those tackles despite incompetent guys sharing the field with him, Charles Godfrey is an above average S and deserves that deal, etc.

#73 TheRumGone

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:48 PM

Maybe not mirrored the exact guys brought in but a comparable caliber of guys brought in....after he made the Gmable cut and some obvious restructures. Only the Anderson cut appears something outside Hurney's wheelhouse.

I don't think Hurney was a bad GM.....until Richardson put Fox in that weird window, then Richardson dictated how we handled the lockout, etc.

Gettlemen certainly hasn't proven to be as good as Hurney WAS when he first got here


I just completely disagree. What was the cap like in 2002 when Hurney was hired? I was 14 years old, it couldn't have been worse than what Gettleman has had to deal with.

I think you have some sort of deep seeded resentment towards Gettleman because of his comments about read-option QB's.

#74 panther4life

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:11 PM

What would you have done? I'm not trying to be a dick, just want to know.


I posted back in February that I would have cut Gamble and Edwards. That saved 11.4 million right off the bat. I misunderstood all the details of Beason's contract and had us cutting him for a similar savings that Anderson ultimately did. I never thought of the Kalil and Olsen restructures but they are core players and in hindsight easy to see why Gettleman was okay with increasing their cap hits in future years to provide relief for this year. I calculated a Gross restructure that would have saved us 6 million, Gettleman stretched it to 6.8 million. I also suggested cutting Nakumara outright vs believing he'd take the paycut of 500k.
^^^
Point is I am just a fan and far from being cut out to be a GM or even an intern but even me a fan was able to forecast a good portion of the major moves that saved us money. Thats why I don't believe it to be a major stretch to believe Hurney could have done the same.17.2 million worth anyway.

http://www.carolinah...ts/page__st__30

The free agent signings that he chose to make outside of retaining Hurney guys are impossible to tell if they will pan out yet or if Hurney would have targeted the same guys. Granted he has the same scouting staff that Gettleman does, so unless he's throwing their opinions to the curb its quite plausible.

Tedd Ginn is one I can easily see. Reason being is Hurney went after Jacoby Jones last year who is comparable to Ginn. Also if memory serves correct we brought Drayton Florence in for a visit in the past but neglected to sign him at the time(good thing as his last contract was hefty).

The real Gettleman magic has not even occured yet. I believe it will but to say it's already been accomplished is premature imo.

also lets not forget rob rogers the "salary cap manager" is stil employed here and surely he knew we would have to find a way to clear some room and had to of had some kind of plan to get us out and if he didn't why was he not canned with Hurney?

#75 Frash Brastard

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 12:01 AM

It's a fugging message board. Why be such an asshole, fug we root for the same team.My post are made with the intent of gaining knowledge and sharing knowledge with other fans. This was me voicing my opinion, not stating facts so I did not mislead anyone in that regard.

If you feel that much of a need to be a prick to a stranger online...nevermind. Carry on. You enjoy it and thats all that matters.


idk I feel like it's kinda prickish to belittle others' opinions, many of which are very plausible. And btw what source are you getting this idea that Rob Rogers has been the man with the plan this entire time?

Gee, where would anybody get the idea that Hurney would've overpaid to keep Munnerlyn here? Oh I know it's because he's done that countless times over the years. When you do it consistently, you earn a reputation for it. In contrast, Gettleman came from the Giants (which is a better run organization no matter which way you slice it). And the way he handled Munnerlyn and Edwards and the FA situation involving them is a piece of evidence that he's changed the way we deal with personnel. Based on Hurney's methods we probably would've given Munnerlyn more than he was worth and let Edwards walk.

Also Ricky Manning didn't necessarily "walk". The Bears signed him to an offer sheet that outbid our tender at the time because he was a RFA, and we were duly compensated with a third round pick that year. And Richard Marshall was actually our starting corner at the time, not a nickleback.

Not one GM except for the one in Panthersland where fans exist that don't hold people accountable for anything that we could go year in and year out starting out millions over the cap while the overall talent level on this team plateaus.


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