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Educators in Atlanta surrendering due to massive cheating scandal


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#16 Floppin

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 05:44 PM

Would you privatize education?


Yeah, and allow for parents to apply for subsidized funding if they couldn't afford it - Much like daycare is handled.

#17 cookinwithgas

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:27 PM

If not by standardized testing, how do you propose that we evaluate the effectiveness of teachers or the curriculum?

Oh I forgot...no need for education...we will just let the gov't entitlement programs support those who are left behind.


Haha MadHatter is on record thinking that we need to have elected officials in charge of determining effectiveness of educators

We managed to build the greatest education system in the world without this crap. I'd much rather have my kids learn in school instead of studying for a standardized test. I'd rather trust teachers and dedicated school administrators than a government panel. I'd rather spend our tax dollars training, retaining and rewarding good teachers instead of building more F-35s than we need.

But sure Mad. no standardized testing must mean we have no need for education, keep rollin with your unique perspective.

#18 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:34 PM

I heard that bail set for one of those accused of cheating was around 5 million. Maybe its just me, but that seems a bit excessive. :)

#19 Delhommey

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:22 PM

Yeah, and allow for parents to apply for subsidized funding if they couldn't afford it - Much like daycare is handled.


Because that's one thing you'll NEVER find in private enterprise- fixing the numbers to get a bigger bonus.

#20 Floppin

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:27 PM

Because that's one thing you'll NEVER find in private enterprise- fixing the numbers to get a bigger bonus.


Huh? I think you're missing my point.

#21 Delhommey

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:08 PM

I heard that bail set for one of those accused of cheating was around 5 million. Maybe its just me, but that seems a bit excessive. :)


Meanwhile the bankers who defrauded the nation into the greatest recession since the 1930's are "too big to prosecute."

#22 MadHatter

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 07:40 AM

Haha MadHatter is on record thinking that we need to have elected officials in charge of determining effectiveness of educators

We managed to build the greatest education system in the world without this crap. I'd much rather have my kids learn in school instead of studying for a standardized test. I'd rather trust teachers and dedicated school administrators than a government panel. I'd rather spend our tax dollars training, retaining and rewarding good teachers instead of building more F-35s than we need.

But sure Mad. no standardized testing must mean we have no need for education, keep rollin with your unique perspective.


As usual CWG...I ask a simple question. You don't answer it and go on another ignorant diatribe.

Without some standardized testing, how do you measure the effectiveness of a school's and teacher's teaching?

You cannot just look at a student's grades at a school. Schools can have very different quality standards.

I understand the issues with having raises, funding, etc tied to just a standardized test. You get the corruption that we see in Atlanta. The standardized test scores should not be the only evaluating factor. But, it should be part of the process.

My question to YOU is what do you think would be a better system. If you are too stupid to answer it intelligently (which is pretty evident by your continuous posts that say nothing), we would just prefer that you sit over in the corner and just shut the fug up.



#23 thatlookseasy

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 07:42 AM

No...you can blame POS teachers and administrators directly for this.

If we didn't test, cases of kids being promoted without being properly educated would go unchecked even worse.


If you have a systematic problem you dont treat the symptoms, you treat the cause.

If you think Atlanta is the only school system where this kind of cheating occurs (even though funding for all public schools is determined by their standardized test scores), then you are either being intentionally ignorant or incredibly naive

I'm not saying get rid of standardized testing completely, but any teacher will tell you that when you make school funding and teachers pay dependent on the scores, it forces the teacher to "teach to the test" which takes away real class time. So you have a situation where many teachers despise the standardized tests and simultaneously have everything riding on those tests- a perfect recipe to encourage cheating.

You can punish these people all you want, but if you dont treat the cause this will happen again

#24 g5jamz

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 07:52 AM

I'm not saying get rid of standardized testing completely, but any teacher will tell you that when you make school funding and teachers pay dependent on the scores, it forces the teacher to "teach to the test" which takes away real class time.



First off...this is bs. NCLB was to give empowerment to parents to allow their kids to escape failing schools. If the school wasn't meeting the basic goals, it would go into Title 1 where MORE emphasis is put on that particular school to bring them up. If they continued to fail, the parent would then be offerred the option to move. The grades for funding bs is exactly that...bs. If a teacher truly cared about the student, they'd want them out of a failing school too...even if it were their own.

So you have a situation where many teachers despise the standardized tests and simultaneously have everything riding on those tests- a perfect recipe to encourage cheating.

You can punish these people all you want, but if you dont treat the cause this will happen again


You can go back to two Americas too. Anyone with any semblence of intelligence should've recognized it's near impossible to achieve the grade changes this particular system saw. Incremental? Sure. But this was ridiculous and it wouldn't take much to take a sample of kids and find out that something went awry.

#25 Delhommey

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 08:08 AM

Standardized testing in and of itself isn't the enemy. It's how it's administered.

Tying standardized testing to standardized testing is a death spiral for poorer schools. Children from wealthier (almost always better educated) parents not only test better initially, they learn at a faster rate. This isn't opinion. It's statistical fact.

Poorer schools will always test worse than wealthier schools, due to having more poor students. Having equal testing amongst all schools is just a way of keeping poor schools poor. What should be tested is rather the relative IMPROVEMENT of students from start to finish, rather than the flat grade across all channels.

#26 g5jamz

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 08:22 AM

Standardized testing in and of itself isn't the enemy. It's how it's administered.

Tying standardized testing to standardized testing is a death spiral for poorer schools. Children from wealthier (almost always better educated) parents not only test better initially, they learn at a faster rate. This isn't opinion. It's statistical fact.

Poorer schools will always test worse than wealthier schools, due to having more poor students. Having equal testing amongst all schools is just a way of keeping poor schools poor. What should be tested is rather the relative IMPROVEMENT of students from start to finish, rather than the flat grade across all channels.


Improvement IS a measurement tool of NCLB

I'm not praising all things NCLB mind you...but the brainless comments about it sometimes come off as white noise.

#27 pstall

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 08:23 AM

Often times as well schools will move students around or alter attendance enough to muddy the water and so you don't get a truly accurate picture of how a school is doing.

This scandal is brazen and seems more towards job keeping than helping kids.

But yes other measures could be viewed to see improvement. So messy on funding etc.
The worst part is the message adults send to kids on how to handle adversity.

#28 Delhommey

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 08:32 AM

Improvement IS a measurement tool of NCLB

I'm not praising all things NCLB mind you...but the brainless comments about it sometimes come off as white noise.


It's only part of it, and again, poor students improve slower.

Any direct comparison of wealthy and poor schools will end up like a football game between Alabama and Elon.

#29 g5jamz

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 08:49 AM

It's only part of it, and again, poor students improve slower.

Any direct comparison of wealthy and poor schools will end up like a football game between Alabama and Elon.


That's why they aren't compared. It's a % reading level of students at their grade level. Judged on their own abilities. Do you have children? My kids elementary school went through a Title I period due to influx of a LOT of kids from another area, but they have improved. Never really has been an issue for my kids because of the specific teachers they either had, our work ethic, or their own ambition. Either way...there have been some discipline issues that have lead to either kids being rerouted to alternative schools or reassignment. Bit of background...Wake County public schools were a mess for decades because towns like Garner were the dumping ground of problem students to spread the scholastic wealth amongst schools to avoid Title I. Then there was a change to busing to avoid these issues so that true trouble districts could be exposed and more funding/help directed to those areas. That pissed off the teachers and they got control back and it's going back the other direction again. One reason I yanked my middle schooler out of public school. My elementary school kid is still in the system because it's a good school, but when the assigned middle school is on the top ten most dangerous schools in Wake County...distractions aren't needed.

#30 MadHatter

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:02 AM

Poorer schools will always test worse than wealthier schools, due to having more poor students. Having equal testing amongst all schools is just a way of keeping poor schools poor. What should be tested is rather the relative IMPROVEMENT of students from start to finish, rather than the flat grade across all channels.


Same old poo from the same old people.

Blame everyone other than the kids and their parents.

Kid is poor, so we just just accept that they can't succeed in school.

I will guarantee you that there are kids that are academically successful in those very schools.

As long as people continue to have ZERO personal accountability, we will get the same poor results.


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