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Keenan Allen Pro Day Tommorow.


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#211 SIGCHI222

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:02 PM

All I was doing is stating a fact. You guys can fuss all you want. I don't really have a dog in this fight.


Doesn't make the facts false or my observations untrue.

Best thing for all of us to do is go back and look at the last 10 years worth of drafts and see how many great players got picked after the 1st round and how many busts were picked in the first round. You are fooling yourself if you think you can discern the tea leaves.

#212 koolkatluke

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:06 PM

All I was doing is stating a fact. You guys can fuss all you want. I don't really have a dog in this fight.


Doesn't make the facts false or my observations untrue.

Best thing for all of us to do is go back and look at the last 10 years worth of drafts and see how many great players got picked after the 1st round and how many busts were picked in the first round. You are fooling yourself if you think you can discern the tea leaves.



That's really not a fair comparison. There are 32 players selected in the 1st round and 192 (or around that number) after that. That's a way bigger talent pool to find failure and success.


But I get your point.

#213 SIGCHI222

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:15 PM

That's really not a fair comparison. There are 32 players selected in the 1st round and 192 (or around that number) after that. That's a way bigger talent pool to find failure and success.


But I get your point.


No, my wife gets my point, you just understood what I wrote.















I'm just messin' with you Luke. I get it. But any of us who say we have it figured out are just foolish.

#214 Ivan The Awesome

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:17 PM

That's another aspect that irks me. Allen supporters act as if Keenan is the consensus #1 WR in this draft but if that were true, then he'd be going before Austin and Patterson. They also act as if his performance today put him on the map. Running a 4.7 only reinforces possession receiver labels and separation concerns. A month ago, fans were claiming he ran a 4.4 and was faster than he appeared on tape. Now, fans are citing that speed isn't important and settle for Allen's routes and hands, which is fine but Hopkins has superior hands and is just as good as Keenan in running routes. So what makes him deserving to be taken as the third best WR in this draft when a WR such as Hopkins is on his talent level?


You're acting as he's 100% healthy and ran that. You also dismiss his other skills and assets that aren't his speed. Like his route running, his ability to play the outside and the slot. His punt returning ability. Size, build, strength, hands. But oh no, he ran a 4.71 forty, he's not worth it now. LOL. Man...

#215 koolkatluke

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:20 PM

No, my wife gets my point, you just understood what I wrote.















I'm just messin' with you Luke. I get it. But any of us who say we have it figured out are just foolish.


Oh I totally agree. Nobody knows what this team will do in the draft. But that won't stop the MB GM's around here who will say they do.

#216 carolina-chuck

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:34 PM

OMG someone doesnt agree with me, let me throw my hands up. Allen is damaged goods. I would hope carolina has learned their lesson about drafting players with pre-existing injuries. I prefer Hopkins over Allen and Austin. I just dont like him at #14, if they stick with pick 14, then they shouldnt go WR.


I've never once said I didnt like Hopkins. I would love to have either one at 14. But to act like Hopkins is a beast at catching 33 one handed grab from a football jug is like watching Chad Jackson win best hand at the 2006 college Allstars challenge.

#217 carolina-chuck

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:41 PM

Oh I totally agree. Nobody knows what this team will do in the draft. But that won't stop the MB GM's around here who will say they do.


KKL, who will the panthers take in two weeks?

#218 Promethean Forerunner

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:47 PM

You're acting as he's 100% healthy and ran that. You also dismiss his other skills and assets that aren't his speed. Like his route running, his ability to play the outside and the slot. His punt returning ability. Size, build, strength, hands. But oh no, he ran a 4.71 forty, he's not worth it now. LOL. Man...


Allen said himself his knee was at 100%. No excuses. Fans like yourself blamed the QB at Cal for Keenan not being able to get enough separation between him and DBs but his speed has always been average at best. Who cares if he played at slot and on the outside? Both Hopkins and Bailey did that too.

Dismiss what? I recommend you re-read my statement. I didn't criticize his hands and routes, now did I? I made a point that you didn't bother to address. What makes Allen better than Hopkins? It ain't his hands, it isn't his routes, and it certainly isn't his speed and size.

So you tell me, how is he superior to a WR like Hopkins?

#219 C47

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:48 PM

Allen said himself his knee was at 100%. No excuses. Fans like yourself blamed the QB at Cal for Keenan not being able to get enough separation between him and DBs but his speed has always been average at best. Who cares if he played at slot and on the outside? Both Hopkins and Bailey did that too.

Dismiss what? I recommend you re-read my statement. I didn't criticize his hands and routes, now did I? I made a point that you didn't bother to address. What makes Allen better than Hopkins? It ain't his hands, it isn't his routes, and it certainly isn't his speed and size.

So you tell me, how is he superior to a WR like Hopkins?


Way to leave out the fact that Dr. James Andrews said the muscle is about 75% so he's lacking explosive ability. Eh whatever proves your point I guess.....

#220 koolkatluke

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:50 PM

KKL, who will the panthers take in two weeks?



1. New GM + HC fighting for his Job + Owner looking for stadium money + New OC + Fa signing =
I don't have a fuging clue.

#221 Promethean Forerunner

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:55 PM

Way to leave out the fact that Dr. James Andrews said the muscle is about 75% so he's lacking explosive ability. Eh whatever proves your point I guess.....


85%.

Even if Allen were completely at 100%, I doubt he'd run a 4.4. Keenan has average speed. I saw him running a 4.55 or a 4.62, if healthy.

#222 Ivan The Awesome

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:02 PM

Allen said himself his knee was at 100%. No excuses. Fans like yourself blamed the QB at Cal for Keenan not being able to get enough separation between him and DBs but his speed has always been average at best. Who cares if he played at slot and on the outside? Both Hopkins and Bailey did that too.

Dismiss what? I recommend you re-read my statement. I didn't criticize his hands and routes, now did I? I made a point that you didn't bother to address. What makes Allen better than Hopkins? It ain't his hands, it isn't his routes, and it certainly isn't his speed and size.

So you tell me, how is he superior to a WR like Hopkins?



So its not an excuse because he said it and it was true. I'm not even mentioning what his doctor said which by the way, he's a doctor... I advise you re-read my statements and tell me when I mentioned Hopkins or even said that I don't want Hopkins... You're arguing with yourself. Fans like you are quick to dismiss key pieces of information just to be "right".

Just so you don't spew crap and try to put things in my mouth. I want Allen, Hopkins, Hunter. Either one of them is fine with me.

Also saying that Hopkins is better only because Most people say Allen had a crap QB is asenine. Allen had Clausen 2.0 throwing him the ball. Guess what? He produced with that crap QB play. Making him more skillful.

#223 SIGCHI222

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:03 PM

85%.

Even if Allen were completely at 100%, I doubt he'd run a 4.4. Keenan has average speed. I saw him running a 4.55 or a 4.62, if healthy.


4.71 times .85 equals 4.0035. Again, not sure if any of us are using any type of logic that Aristotle or Plato would agree with.

#224 panther4life

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:06 PM

Everybody on NFLN dismissed the 40 time as he has only been cleared to workout for a few weeks and never thought he was going to kill it in the 40 anyway.

His route running and hands( Hopkins drops a lot of balls) are in fact superior to Hopkins for those asking. Just go to YouTube type in the prospects name and add "vs".,, plenty of game cut ups will arise and allow you to see for yourself.

I did notice Hopkins getting deep more often but this also seems to be a byproduct of his qb and offensive line providing the time for such routes. Defendes also tended to spy on Allen with multiple players and he still got separation with suddenness in his routes.

Allen also had enough speed to be trusted as a returner and proved explosive enough as evidenced by Cal's willingness to to hand him the ball in the backfield.

If you are dying for a straight line speedster Hopkins and Allen are the wrong guys to consider. I'd recommend Austin and Patterson for this.

I'd prefer Patterson of the 2 speedsters as I like his physical tools that accompany the speed. Yes he's not as polished as Austin but I just think he's not the right fit for our offense. I don't see him getting up for jump balls anywhere on YouTube, his combine vertical sucked and his bench reps concern me in terms of beating the jam.

Allen seems to be the most balanced receiver of the group and has the lowest floor IMO assuming he can heal properly and in time. If you want highest ceiling then that belongs to Patterson.

#225 panthers55

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:06 PM

For what it's worth, Jerry Rice ran a 4.71.
Everybody has an opinion but you guys that are dogmatically stating that your opinion is the only possible correct conclusion are making me laugh.
Once again I bring up Luke Kuechly, who like a total of 4 of us wanted last year during these discussions.


We should all just cool our jets.


Well I was one of those who championed Newton in 2011 and Kuechly in 2012, and I clearly don't see Allen anywhere close to either of those 2. In fact the lack of exceptional talent in the first and the depth of the draft have made me somewhat ambivalent about who to champion this year. But anyone who thinks a receiver who is not heads and shoulders above the others when 100% is worth a top 15 pick when he can't even run all the drills and admits he is only 75% after 5 months of rehab is thinking with his heart and not his head.

And using Jerry Rice's 4.71 to justify drafting an injured receiver is like saying that we should only draft quarterbacks in the 6th round because that is where Tom Brady was drafted.


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