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2nd child of Pa. couple dies after only praying


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#31 Mr. Scot

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:19 PM

if faith heals then, why take medicine at all? it's not very faithful


Because nothing in the text actually suggests that.

You could apply that kind of silly extension to pretty much anything if you wanted ("Why work when you could just pray for money?" etc) but you can't support it with actual text, especially not when you read the rest of the NT.

It's one thing to criticize what someone or something actually says. But if someone else twists what was said or written to mean something it was never intended to, then the person doing the twisting is the one to blame.

And don't give me "but the Bible lends itself to that" because any words can be twisted.

#32 pstall

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:23 PM

If faith was 100% then why exist? What would be the point in having ups and downs and weaknesses?
Also there is the old Gods will dillyo. Praying isn't about wanting what you want but trying to be humble and connect with God. Listening to the doc and praying is wise. Even wiser is asking if its Gods will you can be healed. Again no harm in that.

Saying its not faithful is more legalistic than anything else.

Imagine how little we woul rely on God or grow if we always get what we prayed for.
That last blurb will make even more sense when you have a child. They will be perplexed when you say no and they will go but dad I said please.
Fatherhood is a very eye opening event on a host of things.

#33 PhillyB

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:37 PM

i don't think teleology is compatible with a god as an agent of love, despite philosophical contortions to that end. it no longer makes sense to me

#34 lightsout

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:26 PM

It's very simple: the bible says that he who prays sincerely will get what he prays for. Medical care costs money that not everybody has or wants to pay. God is apparently a free service of healing, according to the bible and the whole "healing the sick and needy". Pray = no money spent, doctor = money spent. These idiots follow this path of thinking, end up killing their kid because prayer doesn't fuging work. This was demonstrated TWICE to them, and GUARANTEED they still don't get it.

#35 pstall

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:34 PM

i don't think teleology is compatible with a god as an agent of love, despite philosophical contortions to that end. it no longer makes sense to me


And you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

#36 PhillyB

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 12:18 AM

And you are certainly entitled to your opinion.


my opinion is 100% open to being swayed if presented the proper evidence and accompanying argument.

i spent years answering these very questions with the same dogmatic responses that never actually addressed the questions, and having that emic perspective - that is, viewing a system or structure from the insider's point of view - i can speak to the gaps in thinking involved in answering these sorts of questions with the theology that is ultimately bound by certain elements of literal biblical translations.

#37 NanuqoftheNorth

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:56 AM

Praying to a box of corn flakes will result in essentially the same outcome for your child's health issues as praying to the sky god of your choice. However, the one obvious advantage of praying to a box of corn flakes is this: While waiting in vain for your prayers to be answered, you can serve yourself a tasty and nutritious bowl of cereal that is recognized by the FDA as part of a well balanced diet. True, your child may still die without proper medical treatment, but at least you can console yourself with the thought that you had a sensible breakfast.

#38 Zod

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:24 AM

This is an extreme version of an insincere faith.



On the contrary, this appears to be a total and complete faith.

Ignoring medical treatment because you believe with all your heart Jesus will heal him is having total and complete faith in him. It is anything but insincere.

Thank goodness the biological urge to survive overpowers superstition in the vast majority of cases.

#39 Matthias

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:04 AM

Jesus said if you abide in Him, and His words abide in you, then you shall ask and receive from the Father. You see, there's a condition. I VERY much doubt Jesus words abided in this couple, Jesus words don't abide in most pastors and priests. (And I don't know if the couple abide Him. If they received Jesus into their heart, then they are in Him)

So let's remember what Jesus said, not just being a hearer of the word, deceiving ourselves. Most people just hear what Jesus said, and when things don't happen, they say this stuff doesn't work. He said you must be a doer of the word. With all that said (in response to some of what has been said in this thread about what Jesus said concerning asking and receiving), this couple should have taken their child to the doctor. Of course!!!! Very few, if much of anyone, walks completely like Jesus walked. And Christians shouldn't be arrogant here and lofty, Jesus provided for His disciples with the things they needed. When the disciples were hungry, he let them go through the grain field on the Sabbath to get something to eat. Picking grain is a very pratical way of resolving the problem of hunger. If Jesus did this very pratical thing, we should do the pratical things as well. Yes, I believe in God's power to heal, and all the power of God is in Jesus.

#40 Bronn

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:20 AM

Jesus said if you abide in Him, and His words abide in you, then you shall ask and receive from the Father. You see, there's a condition. I VERY much doubt Jesus words abided in this couple, Jesus words don't abide in most pastors and priests. (And I don't know if the couple abide Him. If they received Jesus into their heart, then they are in Him)

So let's remember what Jesus said, not just being a hearer of the word, deceiving ourselves. Most people just hear what Jesus said, and when things don't happen, they say this stuff doesn't work. He said you must be a doer of the word. With all that said (in response to some of what has been said in this thread about what Jesus said concerning asking and receiving), this couple should have taken their child to the doctor. Of course!!!! Very few, if much of anyone, walks completely like Jesus walked. And Christians shouldn't be arrogant here and lofty, Jesus provided for His disciples with the things they needed. When the disciples were hungry, he let them go through the grain field on the Sabbath to get something to eat. Picking grain is a very pratical way of resolving the problem of hunger. If Jesus did this very pratical thing, we should do the pratical things as well. Yes, I believe in God's power to heal, and all the power of God is in Jesus.


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#41 Cat

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:10 AM

Oh yeah. Those verses clearly say "Don't go to the doctor" :rolleyes:

Perhaps you should check these out...

Matthew 9:12

Mark 2:17

Luke 5:31



There is no mention of the word Trinity in the Bible either, it's only implied or a concept but you believe in it. It's called interpretation.



21Then Jesus told them, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and don’t doubt, you can do things like this and much more. You can even say to this mountain, ‘May you be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and it will happen. 22You can pray for anything, and if you have faith, you will receive it.”



I know people actually living out the teachings of Jesus is bizarre to Christians. So I know where you're coming from. Actually living out Jesus' teachings would be disastrous for human life.

#42 Matthias

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:14 AM

It seems this couple had a lot of doubt.

#43 pstall

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:02 AM

my opinion is 100% open to being swayed if presented the proper evidence and accompanying argument.

Following Jesus and theology are two dif things. You know that right?
Jesus is organic food. Theology is Monsanto or other synthetic gobbly ****.

People who refuse medicine are a very small fraction of people who believe. Praying for something doesn't automatically mean it will happen.
As I said earlier praying and also paying attention and listening to the doc only has up side.

Also at some point even for the most ardent person who scoffs at God they will be faced with epic odds and instead of being a cold robot who thinks all logic and hope has been exhausted will possibly even offer a silent prayer in the hopes of a miracle. Nothing wrong with that.

I get it. Some of you are so vastly evolved you don't need to pray and even though you would never admit it you look down on those who do or at least smirk or mock them. To each his own I guess.

So let me say again. Not taking medicine or input that is 100% lock solid it will help because you don't believe it will but will pray is an insincere faith.
There is a passage that says if a man doesn't work he won't eat. But does he have faith? If he does then the food should fall out of the sky right?




i spent years answering these very questions with the same dogmatic responses that never actually addressed the questions, and having that emic perspective - that is, viewing a system or structure from the insider's point of view - i can speak to the gaps in thinking involved in answering these sorts of questions with the theology that is ultimately bound by certain elements of literal biblical translations.



#44 carpantherfan84

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 12:47 PM

This is demonstrative of a fundamental part of the Christian religion which is often overlooked. Altruism. The purpose of faith, believing in Jesus, prayer is to do good works. This has been misinterpreted as a roadmap to heaven type of thinking. I.e. do enough good, pray hard enough or etc., one will somehow benefit. It would seem to me that these people were trying to demonstrate to god how strong their faith was. The only reason I can think of to do that would be in order to achieve a place in heaven or something to that effect. This line of thinking is completely unsupported in the original teachings and the bible is filled with stories and examples of how ANY selfish thinking will lead to trouble. Most parents would be willing to sacrifice anything up to and including their soul for the well being of their child. This is altruism, and is definitely supported by scripture.

#45 Cat

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:38 PM

This is demonstrative of a fundamental part of the Christian religion which is often overlooked. Altruism. The purpose of faith, believing in Jesus, prayer is to do good works. This has been misinterpreted as a roadmap to heaven type of thinking. I.e. do enough good, pray hard enough or etc., one will somehow benefit. It would seem to me that these people were trying to demonstrate to god how strong their faith was. The only reason I can think of to do that would be in order to achieve a place in heaven or something to that effect. This line of thinking is completely unsupported in the original teachings and the bible is filled with stories and examples of how ANY selfish thinking will lead to trouble. Most parents would be willing to sacrifice anything up to and including their soul for the well being of their child. This is altruism, and is definitely supported by scripture.



I'm not sure where you get the idea that the purpose of faith and believing in Jesus is to do good works (i'd love to hear what you have to say about that). I think any message advocating altruism is triumphed by the message that God is first and nothing comes before serving God. From early childhood Christians are told the story of Abraham and his willingness to sacrifice his son because God commanded him to. Also Matthew 10:37 Jesus says anyone who loves their mother, father son or daughter more than him is not worthy of him. But I think this might all be getting off point.


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