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Rivera: Panthers' new offense will be more of a collaberative effort

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#46 rayzor

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 08:56 AM

fwiw, i do take this as a  positive thing on gameplanning. i think he could be a good leader and despite my lack of faith in him as OC i think he'll manage the offense much better than chud monday thru saturday. 

 

i just don't trust his game management and playcalling. this little write up did nothing to appease my concerns about that which has been my main concerns about him all along. i just wish he would let someone else stay up in the booth and call the plays. everything else about the job i think he would be ok at.



#47 rayzor

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:02 AM

Sometimes I thought maybe we were all overreacting to Chud not listening to others and being about himself, but this article and what Rivera said just proved to me that this was the case. 

 

Which further puts blame on Chud for the first 6 or 7 games of the season when we were read-option heavy.

i still put blame on rivera. its his team. it doesnt take six or seven weeks with just one or two wins to realize you are doing something wrong. the offense didnt change, not because of chud but because rivera was either too dumb to notice it wasnt working or didnt have the balls to take his team by the reins and put his assistant in his place. chud was bad, but it was rivera's job to right the ship and he waited too long to do it.

 

what's worse in my mind is his lack of ownership. instead of saying that he knows he should have changed things earlier before we got eliminated, he started getting defensive and saying rome wasnt built in a day and other crap things like that.



#48 MHS831

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:03 AM

In your mind it might be a negative but I read the same article and didn't come to a negative conclusion at all.  In fact I thought it was good that Shula was open to input from the staff and players.  I was encouraged.

 

Funny how 2 people can read the same thing and come to different conclusions. 

I saw that and agree.  I simply start analyzing how this could be perceived by the players.  Ultimately, someone has to make the decisions.  Input is provided by players and coaches on every team.  Is the final decision going to be made by Shula?  If this is to suggest it is not, then I see potential credibility issues.  If it is to be Rivera, then that was always the case and everyone already understands that the head coach has that power--so why state it?

 

Democracy is great, but football is war-sometimes Marshall Law is necessary.  When that time comes, will Shula be the one to take the reins?  I think so, but will Shula feel empowered to make the call when he has to? 

 

There were times last year when I felt that McDermott was on a leash or was the Co-Coordinator.  It was all based on that comment I mentioned.  If I remember it, do the players?



#49 PantherFeez

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:03 AM

"Shula, in his third year in Charlotte, will seek input from the entire offensive staff."

 

"And while Rivera has indicated the offense won’t look much different than it did under Chudzinski, he said Shula would bring 'his own personality' to it."

 

As long as this doesn't create a "too many cooks in the kitchen" atmosphere then a collaborative effort is fine. Matching play calling to to the strength of your personal is a good thing, and positional coach input can help this. But what we need to be looking for is Shula making the final say so and this "input" isn't game planning by committee. Sit down, hear everyone out (Like Getts did with the draft) and let Shula make the game plan from there.

 

The continuity of Chud's verbage, selection of plays, and some of the philosophy behind it are welcome.. but progress needs to be expected. "Continuity" in the sucky play calling department are only going to result in a new HC, OC and a totally new game book next year



#50 rayzor

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:04 AM

Rivera as head coach had a responsibility to put his foot in Chud's ass and tell him to fix it.

It shouldn't have taken half the season...

yep.



#51 TheRumGone

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:06 AM

I saw that and agree.  I simply start analyzing how this could be perceived by the players.  Ultimately, someone has to make the decisions.  Input is provided by players and coaches on every team.  Is the final decision going to be made by Shula?  If this is to suggest it is not, then I see potential credibility issues.  If it is to be Rivera, then that was always the case and everyone already understands that the head coach has that power--so why state it?

 

Democracy is great, but football is war-sometimes Marshall Law is necessary.  When that time comes, will Shula be the one to take the reins?  I think so, but will Shula feel empowered to make the call when he has to? 

 

There were times last year when I felt that McDermott was on a leash or was the Co-Coordinator.  It was all based on that comment I mentioned.  If I remember it, do the players?

You obviously didn't read the article... Rivera said ultimately on gamedays it will be Shula's call.  Reading is good for you it also prevents unneccesary freakouts.



#52 TheRumGone

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:07 AM

i still put blame on rivera. its his team. it doesnt take six or seven weeks with just one or two wins to realize you are doing something wrong. the offense didnt change, not because of chud but because rivera was either too dumb to notice it wasnt working or didnt have the balls to take his team by the reins and put his assistant in his place. chud was bad, but it was rivera's job to right the ship and he waited too long to do it.

 

what's worse in my mind is his lack of ownership. instead of saying that he knows he should have changed things earlier before we got eliminated, he started getting defensive and saying rkme wasnt built in a day and other crap things like that.

 

Yes, obviously. I think what i like about this season going forward is everyone seems to be on the same page. Rivera should have made sure they all were last year, but thats the feeling i get anyway for this year.

 

And this is all starting from the top with Gettleman.



#53 MHS831

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:11 AM

i still put blame on rivera. its his team. it doesnt take six or seven weeks with just one or two wins to realize you are doing something wrong. the offense didnt change, not because of chud but because rivera was either too dumb to notice it wasnt working or didnt have the balls to take his team by the reins and put his assistant in his place. chud was bad, but it was rivera's job to right the ship and he waited too long to do it.

 

what's worse in my mind is his lack of ownership. instead of saying that he knows he should have changed things earlier before we got eliminated, he started getting defensive and saying rkme wasnt built in a day and other crap things like that.

Very good point.  Maybe RIvera was not intending to slight his OC, he was simply stating that his OC would be a better listener.  HOWEVER, then your second point becomes more obvious.  Was he blaming Chud for last year's frustrations on offense--that he was not listening to others?  If that is the case, then he basically told the press that he was not regulating the offense--He trusted Chud and was stooooopid to do so.

 

Coming off 2011, the offense was sizzling and Cam was ROY.  The league adjusted to Cam and the offense, but Chud did not adjust to the league.  Rivera did not have veteran assistant coaches and did not have the knowledge about the offense to regulate adjustments. 



#54 TheRumGone

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:15 AM

Very good point.  Maybe RIvera was not intending to slight his OC, he was simply stating that his OC would be a better listener.  HOWEVER, then your second point becomes more obvious.  Was he blaming Chud for last year's frustrations on offense--that he was not listening to others?  If that is the case, then he basically told the press that he was not regulating the offense--He trusted Chud and was stooooopid to do so.

 

Coming off 2011, the offense was sizzling and Cam was ROY.  The league adjusted to Cam and the offense, but Chud did not adjust to the league.  Rivera did not have veteran assistant coaches and did not have the knowledge about the offense to regulate adjustments. 

 

Or Chud wasn't listening to him, or Cam, or Shula, or the rest of the players.

 

But it's still Rivera who needed to get across to Chud.



#55 MHS831

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:16 AM

Yes, obviously. I think what i like about this season going forward is everyone seems to be on the same page. Rivera should have made sure they all were last year, but thats the feeling i get anyway for this year.

 

And this is all starting from the top with Gettleman.

Be careful with assumptions.  If you ever coached, you would know that taking charge is not something that happens on game days.  It is a 24-7 mindset.  My point was this:  Why make this statement to the press if it is nothing more than what every team does?  It gives the impression that Shula will not be making overarching decisions.  My point, which was clearly stated, was that the perception that Shula is not capable of making decisions-justified or not-can cause players to doubt your leadership.

 

This goes on everywhere.  Why state this to the public?  What was the point? 



#56 teeray

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:16 AM

A few points and counterpoints:

 

First of all, I do not claim to know the answer, but I have been around the game my entire life as a player, coach, and fan.  Here is what I have learned in response to these issues:

`1.  People are concerned because Shula has a conservative history.

a. Shula's Tide and Shula's Bucs had no real QB.  Historically, here at Carolina and everywhere else, you get conservative when you do not have a strong QB. 

b. People in the NFL die on the vine if they do not evolve.  People are comparing his offense at Tampa when the focus there and league-wide was on defense.  Shula never had more than a game manager and that is what he was told to do.

c. Shula was a QB who coached Cam for 2 years.  His job, for 40 games (including the preseason) has been to focus on Cam Newton.  This is the reason he was retained and it is not a small reason.   He has spent thousands of hours watching Cam Newton.  He knows Cam's quirks, his strengths and weaknesses better than anyone on the planet.  As Cam goes, this offense goes.  As Cam goes, the Panthers go. 

d. IF we get more conservative, that is not a bad thing.  We were three and out a lot last year.  Our defense got tired, which is why we sucked in the fourth quarter.  Silatolu and Kugbila (I think he will start) will be better as run blocking.  We have Tolbert, Barner, DWill, and Stewart.  Play action would make the offense harder to defend.  Stop the run, then the pass, then the QB from running.  Watch Tolbert and Barner in the flats, cover the TE with 4.5 speed, double Smitty, and still contain the 250 lb running QB---a nightmare. If you take the run element out, the Panthers are defendable.  Think about last year--how many yards did Double Trouble get?  When this team has succeeded, they have run the football. 25 yard pass completions are nice, but give me five, five-yard runs instead.  That is ball control, resting the defense, and when you have the ball, their team does not.

e. Do not judge Shula by what he did 13 years ago with QBs like Dilfer and King.  Would you open up the offense with Altstott and Dunn in the backfield?

e.

 

I agree with most everything you posted here but just a point of fact, we did not have a lot of three and outs last year.  We were 10th in the NFL in drive success rate at .715 (which is a term used for three and outs) The reason our defense would tire is because they could not get off the field. 

 

I think our advancement in defense last year is over exaggerated.  Truth is our defense was not very good last year either.  It was better than 2011, but only because in 2011 our defense was incredibly bad.  Last year they were just moderately bad, which is an improvement, but we still have a ways to go.  Hopefully our young interior lineman can help.



#57 Ship

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:17 AM

Yeah, I'm taking this as Rivera/Shula enacting the Gettleman approach to team management, like in the draft, getting everyone's opinion and then letting him make the final calls. Shula's gonna get perspectives from the assistant coaches and maybe some vet players and use that to give the team the best plays and best calls. Definitely starting to see some of the top down attitude adjustment in how the team is being run. Very excited to see how it plays out.



#58 Zod

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:19 AM

Common misconception: People are concerned because Shula has a history of conservative playcalling.

 

Reality: People are concerned because Shula has a history of not scoring points and not being able to make effective game plans and adjustments. 

 

 

I love a good conservative run game that pounds the ball. As long as its done in an effective manner with positive results.



#59 MHS831

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:20 AM

Or Chud wasn't listening to him, or Cam, or Shula, or the rest of the players.

 

But it's still Rivera who needed to get across to Chud.

Yes.  I think that explains the comment.  However, the comment was rather backhanded and could have been interpreted as a lack of confidence in Shula.  This makes sense.



#60 MHS831

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:22 AM

Common misconception: People are concerned because Shula has a history of conservative playcalling.

 

Reality: People are concerned because Shula has a history of not scoring points and not being able to make effective game plans and adjustments. 

 

 

I love a good conservative run game that pounds the ball. As long as its done in an effective manner with positive results.

I think it would make Cam more effective. 





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