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class valedictorian recites prayer during graduation ceremony, is summarily executed


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#91 PhillyB

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:45 PM

you're right. how blind and wrong of me for saying its not that big a deal.

 

i need to go back to school to keep up with you guys. sorry for lagging behind with the fat kids.

 

do you want to engage in a dialogue, or do you want to make sarcastic quips in lieu of a substantive response? i often disagree with you, but i also know you're capable of formulating ideas and backing them with data and arguments - i'd be interested in seeing a well-thought-out response. i don't care so much about conclusions as i do about the integrity of the arguments that lead you there.



#92 pstall

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:59 PM

what's there to say? a kid did in fact goes against the wishes of the school board(the establishment as at least how the students see it). the kid tears up the pre approved speech to read the Lord's Prayer.

 

it was his form of protest in the only way he thought possible.

 

 

i don't want a school board or a govt entity trying to dictate how to think, but at the same time, i think the Founders were right in their putting together the separation of church and state. their perspective was coming from the back end of the ramifications of too much religion and politics intermingling.

 

 

the kid in many ways was simply preaching to the choir. much like mainstream media. whichever channel you are on, you are the choir going back for more of the same sermon that backs up what you believe already.

 

if this were a school official advocating for prayer having to be in schools etc and it was a public school, then i look this would an elevated sense of knowing the slippery slope that come come from it. for the top kid in the class to do it then i don't see it as severe.

 

look at the comments that minimized this all for where the kid went to school and i'm the one being singled out for down playing this?

 

some of you are border line hand wriging as if this will be the ground swell for new uber religious movement where prayers are as flowing as free condoms and a cross tattoo will have to be the new way of initiation into the in crowd.

 

i say. much ado about nothing.



#93 PhillyB

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 01:52 PM

it doesn't bother you that people are hailing this as some great cultural victory when it's really just a kid being simple-minded, and simple-minded people voraciously and vocally approving instead of looking at it critically and seeing it for what it is?



#94 pstall

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 01:55 PM

give me a total # across the country that think this is some kind of victory? im a christian and don't really see as that.

 

and way to keep winning people over calling those that applauded simple minded without having spent one nano second with them.

 

come on man. you're better than that.

 

have there not been worse things done at a graduation speech? i think there is perhaps just a teeny tiny bit of overreaction here.

 

call me crazy.



#95 cookinwithgas

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 02:33 PM

As far as I'm concerned, the valedictorian can give pretty much whatever speech they want to - they've earned it.

 

But I wonder if the valedictorian was a Muslim and started reciting some favorite Koran passages after tearing up their "prepared" notes would the people be so happy for him having earned the right to say what he wants? Or maybe if the valedictorian was an African American who decided to give an essay on the terrible human rights record of the town in the past or something? Would these be as warmly received?



#96 cookinwithgas

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 02:44 PM

Now that you've processed that, imagine being a devout Muslim student, or heck, even an athiest, who worked just as hard as that guy did, but he finished up a few points ahead of you and made valedictorian - his off the cuff religious side track is greeted with thunderous applause, but if that was you and you did the same, you would earn the disdain of everyone there - does America seem to be that place where everyone gets a fair shot, that people are judged on what they accomplish instead of where they came from....or does it already appear that a religious majority is going to have it in for you?



#97 SOJA

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 02:54 PM

something something the government was tapping into his phone and could have prevented this



#98 PhillyB

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 08:35 PM

give me a total # across the country that think this is some kind of victory? im a christian and don't really see as that.

 

and way to keep winning people over calling those that applauded simple minded without having spent one nano second with them.

 

come on man. you're better than that.

 

have there not been worse things done at a graduation speech? i think there is perhaps just a teeny tiny bit of overreaction here.

 

call me crazy.

 

in one sense i see exactly where you're coming from. in a vacuum it's not a big deal and really if you categorize it with other dumb things kids do it's not worth much more than a rolling of the eyes and a few flippant remarks about how silly it is. there i agree with you: the action itself is not a big deal.

 

however - and this is where there is a marked disparity between the people who shrug it off and the people who probe deeper into it - is that what's being made a big deal of is not the act itself, but what it represents at its core. no one cares that a kid decided to say the lord's prayer. by itself that doesn't matter. but the context of the kid saying it raises questions about our educational institutions. it serves as a segue, one of many, into a much broader national dialogue that has been going on for decades regarding how information should be taught.

 

it's the same phenomenon that occurs when a homeowner with a gun stops an intruder. by itself it doesn't matter, but in a much greater context of an ongoing national dialogue it's another piece to a puzzle constructed of anecdotes in order to contribute to a broad selection of inputs on opinion and experience.

 

i don't think you're crazy pstall, i think you have an inherent bias (all of us do, to some extent, i think) that makes you more willing to shrug it off because you fundamentally agree with them and they're "your guys" and (more importantly) you're probably speaking about the event itself while we're speaking of what it indexes.



#99 pstall

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:06 PM

me shrugging it off is not a matter of agreeing with him but more so compartmentalizing what he said, where he said it and why he said it.

 

yes, i'm not offended by what he said and i realize if i were in the audience and not knowing the full story, i may have joined in applause maybe out of being polite.

if there and someone was beside me who did not clapped i would have asked and why and went from there.yes. i'm that kind of person. my wife usually has to be at the ready because i will interject myself into just about any conversation. i do it because im infinitely curious.

 

 

if we had a running # over the last 20 years i would say what this kid said is in fact more and more rare. thus, why we are probably getting the reaction that we are.

 

as i said earlier, had this been a school official or board member and they were strong arming others to pray etc, on public grounds, then my red flag will go up much higher.



#100 PhillyB

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:00 PM

i can get down with that.



#101 TANTRIC-NINJA

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:09 AM

If an Atheist was up there I would doubt they would even mention it as they would just find relevant things to speak about: such as the new graduate journey, job market...say something funny.. Tons of things outside of any theist look at me moment.

I think the best part of being the A-werd is that you dont concern yourself over letting down or meeting the approval of some god you just live and try to treat most people like they deserve to be treated.

#102 Cat

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 06:21 AM

That's exactly what Jesus would have done. Stand up in front of a huge crowd and pray for all to see.



#103 g5jamz

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 07:21 AM

Shush....or to the cross with you.



#104 cookinwithgas

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:44 PM

Jesus was a carpenter, not a valedictorian. The Asian kid who made valedictorian in his class would have had to spout off about Buddha.