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#46 TANTRIC-NINJA

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:41 PM

From the Duke of Hazzard?

#47 stirs

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:51 PM

Seems like we have had this discussion hundreds of times by different thread names.

Chicken or the egg?

Poverty begats bad choices or bad choices begets poverty. Could be argued all day.

Either way, the fact that one parent households, no matter the color, are going to have it exponentially harder, is a given.

I think we have also discussed governments role in this, but again, chicken or the egg, does the government help those in need, or by their misguided efforts, create need?

#48 GOOGLE RON PAUL

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 11:34 PM

^neither of those questions are up for debate in academia

 

but i know blah blah ivory towers my ignorance is as good as your knowledge personal responsibility



#49 PhillyB

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:51 AM

tsk tsk, those slaves made a bad decision by choosing to become slaves and then their descendents made even more bad decisions by being socially and economically repressed by all of this country's institutions for centuries. you sleep in the bed you make and personal accountability is gone in society these days and when I was your age blah blah etc

#50 g5jamz

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:25 AM

Nothing changes...everything stays the same. 

 

Gotcha. 



#51 TANTRIC-NINJA

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:14 PM

Nothing changes...everything stays the same.

Gotcha.


Indeed it does.


Eagarly awaiting your next race baiting thread where you plead ingnorance and internet shoulder shrugging...I mean...if you ever did that sort of thing.

#52 g5jamz

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:17 PM

Indeed it does.


Eagarly awaiting your next race baiting thread where you plead ingnorance and internet shoulder shrugging...I mean...if you ever did that sort of thing.

 

You should write complaints to WRAL daily. 



#53 PhillyB

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 01:05 PM

Nothing changes...everything stays the same.

Gotcha.


haha that used to be my response, until i began considering the possibility that poverty, and the culture that accompanies it, is cyclical and generationally inherited. so yes, things have changed, but potentiality =/= widespread plausibility unless you're simply ignoring historical context in favor of pretending everything exists in a vacuum.

#54 g5jamz

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 01:22 PM

haha that used to be my response, until i began considering the possibility that poverty, and the culture that accompanies it, is cyclical and generationally inherited. so yes, things have changed, but potentiality =/= widespread plausibility unless you're simply ignoring historical context in favor of pretending everything exists in a vacuum.

 

So your answer is to solve poverty? and subsequently the culture that is perpetuated from that.

 

I'd say that poverty...relatively speaking...is overused within this context and something that has been tackled generation after generation and yet here we are in the US with the largest number of people on government aid we've ever seen. 



#55 teeray

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 01:26 PM

Seems like we have had this discussion hundreds of times by different thread names.

Chicken or the egg?

Poverty begats bad choices or bad choices begets poverty. Could be argued all day.

Either way, the fact that one parent households, no matter the color, are going to have it exponentially harder, is a given.

I think we have also discussed governments role in this, but again, chicken or the egg, does the government help those in need, or by their misguided efforts, create need?

Chicken or the egg is the wrong analogy. The question of the chicken or the egg is which came first. In the case of the African American community we know which came first.

When the south lost the war and the slaves were freed the only were free from the bondage of men but were immediately re-enslaved into the bondage of poverty and a bigoted society. They were not properly educated, had no trade skills outside of manual labor, most could not read, etc. It wasn't for another 100 years that they even received equal civil rights.

They have been crawling out of the hole we dug them through slavery and a societal bigotry that is still embering under the surface of society today. And then we tell them to pick themselves up by their own bootstraps and get off the government teat and stop being lazy.

Some people act like the African Americans were once a great and wealthy subset of the United States and through laziness and bad decisions destroyed their once prosperous culture and they have no one to blame but themselves.

We know which came first. It was the poverty. The south was willing to end the practice of slavery despite what the history books tell you. But the south wanted it to be in a phased manner tied in with education and/or trade skills much like most northern states did. But the north had other plans. Would it have made a difference? I don't know. But it sure seems like a better plan that what the north did.

The good news is that society is indeed progressing, and I think as society progresses so will the plight of the African Americans.

The only thing slowing that progress is certain political parties continuing to lay the plight of all the United States problems at the feet of African Americans.

Budget is a mess! Blame African Americans

Crime is up! Blame African Americans

A Democrat was elected President! Blame African Americans wanting to keep their welfare checks.

#56 MadHatter

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:18 PM

Chicken or the egg is the wrong analogy. The question of the chicken or the egg is which came first. In the case of the African American community we know which came first.

When the south lost the war and the slaves were freed the only were free from the bondage of men but were immediately re-enslaved into the bondage of poverty and a bigoted society. They were not properly educated, had no trade skills outside of manual labor, most could not read, etc. It wasn't for another 100 years that they even received equal civil rights.

They have been crawling out of the hole we dug them through slavery and a societal bigotry that is still embering under the surface of society today. And then we tell them to pick themselves up by their own bootstraps and get off the government teat and stop being lazy.

Some people act like the African Americans were once a great and wealthy subset of the United States and through laziness and bad decisions destroyed their once prosperous culture and they have no one to blame but themselves.

We know which came first. It was the poverty. The south was willing to end the practice of slavery despite what the history books tell you. But the south wanted it to be in a phased manner tied in with education and/or trade skills much like most northern states did. But the north had other plans. Would it have made a difference? I don't know. But it sure seems like a better plan that what the north did.

The good news is that society is indeed progressing, and I think as society progresses so will the plight of the African Americans.

The only thing slowing that progress is certain political parties continuing to lay the plight of all the United States problems at the feet of African Americans.

Budget is a mess! Blame African Americans

Crime is up! Blame African Americans

A Democrat was elected President! Blame African Americans wanting to keep their welfare checks.

 

Your historical perspective is accurate.  And, it will take all of us to change the status quo (including the government).  However, that government involvement should be for programs to improve education and job training.....not just a check to support someone for doing nothing.

 

It will take these programs, ALONG WITH the mindset of people that they are going to do everything within their power to improve their situation.  However, this piece is sorely lacking in many that are on the gov't juice.....not all, but many.  If the gov't is willing to support people, then people are going to take advantage of that....it is just human nature.

 

The gov't programs should be aid....not lifelong support.



#57 stirs

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:21 PM

Chicken or the egg is the wrong analogy. The question of the chicken or the egg is which came first. In the case of the African American community we know which came first.

When the south lost the war and the slaves were freed the only were free from the bondage of men but were immediately re-enslaved into the bondage of poverty and a bigoted society. They were not properly educated, had no trade skills outside of manual labor, most could not read, etc. It wasn't for another 100 years that they even received equal civil rights.

They have been crawling out of the hole we dug them through slavery and a societal bigotry that is still embering under the surface of society today. And then we tell them to pick themselves up by their own bootstraps and get off the government teat and stop being lazy.

Some people act like the African Americans were once a great and wealthy subset of the United States and through laziness and bad decisions destroyed their once prosperous culture and they have no one to blame but themselves.

We know which came first. It was the poverty. The south was willing to end the practice of slavery despite what the history books tell you. But the south wanted it to be in a phased manner tied in with education and/or trade skills much like most northern states did. But the north had other plans. Would it have made a difference? I don't know. But it sure seems like a better plan that what the north did.

The good news is that society is indeed progressing, and I think as society progresses so will the plight of the African Americans.

The only thing slowing that progress is certain political parties continuing to lay the plight of all the United States problems at the feet of African Americans.

Budget is a mess! Blame African Americans

Crime is up! Blame African Americans

A Democrat was elected President! Blame African Americans wanting to keep their welfare checks.


Sometimes you post as if you enjoy having an audience and the anonimity of the web. People that take a hard right or left stand generally do not impress me.

We had a loooonnnngggg thread just a couple weeks back that Zod started with the same arguments in them. To say that blacks have not had an opportunity to progress since the civil war is a reach. I say they are worse off today than they were at several points in the past in some areas and better in others.

I think the government found a group of people they could mold into a dedicated voting bloc and will do all they can to keep the voting bloc. Just keep promising them success right around the corner and blame all their ills on the other side. You fall right in line with this thinking.

Nevermind the blind dedication to one party for 50-60 years, all the while their families are going away, shools are crappy, teachers do not care, housing is lousy and the government is spending more today than ever. I say the government doesn't care as much about their plight as their vote. Period.

You can fall into the left leaning talking points and blame the right all day long, not that they don't have faults, but the one sided arguments are just silly. Nothing better for any human than to be self sufficient. They find that they need neither party. Neither party wants to be UN needed.

#58 PhillyB

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:29 PM

So your answer is to solve poverty? and subsequently the culture that is perpetuated from that.

I'd say that poverty...relatively speaking...is overused within this context and something that has been tackled generation after generation and yet here we are in the US with the largest number of people on government aid we've ever seen.


I don't know the solution, I'm still exploring the question. however it is asinine to pretend that cyclical poverty does not beget itself, and that only two generations ago it was a national policy to institutionally oppress blacks. so if by "generation after generation" you mean "why can't those darn blacks straighten their poo in 50 years following hundreds of years of prior oppression in a system statistically stacked against them socially and economically" then you are a farking idiot. i'm hoping you just don't grasp the nature of economic flow through generations complicated by other social factors.

frankly I think that complexity is the biggest barrier in dialogue on the issue. I never remember even considering it during my days as a hardcore conservative, and now I recognize it as the most important factor in the discussion. without it you just get white people bitching about minority scholarships and other travesties to social progress.

#59 teeray

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:09 PM

Sometimes you post as if you enjoy having an audience and the anonimity of the web. People that take a hard right or left stand generally do not impress me.

We had a loooonnnngggg thread just a couple weeks back that Zod started with the same arguments in them. To say that blacks have not had an opportunity to progress since the civil war is a reach. I say they are worse off today than they were at several points in the past in some areas and better in others.

I think the government found a group of people they could mold into a dedicated voting bloc and will do all they can to keep the voting bloc. Just keep promising them success right around the corner and blame all their ills on the other side. You fall right in line with this thinking.

Nevermind the blind dedication to one party for 50-60 years, all the while their families are going away, shools are crappy, teachers do not care, housing is lousy and the government is spending more today than ever. I say the government doesn't care as much about their plight as their vote. Period.

You can fall into the left leaning talking points and blame the right all day long, not that they don't have faults, but the one sided arguments are just silly. Nothing better for any human than to be self sufficient. They find that they need neither party. Neither party wants to be UN needed.

 

Welp, first off I do love an audience for sure.  However, I could give a poo about anonymity of the internet.  If you want to come share a bourbon and sit on my front porch while having the same conversation we can work something out.

 

If there is a voting block that is being excessively benefited by the government it is not our poor.  The bottom 20% in terms of, wealth receive only 2.8% of our total government tax expenditure,  The top 20% receive 66% of total government tax expenditure.

 

The top 1% receives 23.9% of total tax expenditure benefits, more than 8 times that of the bottom 20%

 

Only 9% of people receiving entitlements are non-working poor.  91% goes to elderly, veterans, disabled, or working poor.

 

Out of entitlement spending in general, the poor only receive 32% of total expenditures.  the middle class receives 58% of entitlement expenditures.

 

So point being, if they are trying to buy the poor's vote they are doing a pretty terrible job of it.

 

If your concern is excess spending you are targeting the wrong group.  You should be demagoguing the middle class, not the poor.

 

If the Democrats are trying to buy votes through entitlements why did the middle class which received 58% of entitlement money vote overwhelmingly for Mitt Romney by double digits?

 

It isn't a left wing thing, conservative pundits just make this stuff up in their heads so you can continue to blame people who are not to blame for the budgetary struggles of our government and all that is wrong with our society. 

 

Once you step outside the bubble you realize that the poor are not the budgets problem and is not society's problem.



#60 MadHatter

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:19 PM

Welp, first off I do love an audience for sure.  However, I could give a poo about anonymity of the internet.  If you want to come share a bourbon and sit on my front porch while having the same conversation we can work something out.

 

If there is a voting block that is being excessively benefited by the government it is not our poor.  The bottom 20% in terms of, wealth receive only 2.8% of our total government tax expenditure,  The top 20% receive 66% of total government tax expenditure.

 

The top 1% receives 23.9% of total tax expenditure benefits, more than 8 times that of the bottom 20%

 

Only 9% of people receiving entitlements are non-working poor.  91% goes to elderly, veterans, disabled, or working poor.

 

Out of entitlement spending in general, the poor only receive 32% of total expenditures.  the middle class receives 58% of entitlement expenditures.

 

So point being, if they are trying to buy the poor's vote they are doing a pretty terrible job of it.

 

If your concern is excess spending you are targeting the wrong group.  You should be demagoguing the middle class, not the poor.

 

If the Democrats are trying to buy votes through entitlements why did the middle class which received 58% of entitlement money vote overwhelmingly for Mitt Romney by double digits?

 

It isn't a left wing thing, conservative pundits just make this stuff up in their heads so you can continue to blame people who are not to blame for the budgetary struggles of our government and all that is wrong with our society. 

 

Once you step outside the bubble you realize that the poor are not the budgets problem and is not society's problem.

Where did you get the statistics that you quoted above?  I would be interested in reading that article/website.




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