Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Prayer


  • Please log in to reply
81 replies to this topic

#31 PhillyB

PhillyB

    that jungle football

  • ALL-PRO
  • 19,829 posts
  • Locationthird spur east of the sun

Posted 24 June 2013 - 12:25 AM

i'm not trying to argue about your methods, but i just want to explain how this looks to me, as a deist.
If I give an example of how I used prayer to help me in some facet of life... you counter with an explanation about how praying helped me by me actually maintaining focus, rather than by divine intervention, correct?

To me it seems a waste of time to try to contribute to a thread where the primary purpose is to look at prayer through the lenses of logic.

 

the thread was meant more for an open-ended discussion of what prayer is and what, if the traditional judeo-christian understanding of it is outmoded due to the flaws illustrated above, can be changed in our understanding (if anything) to maintain prayer as still meditatively useful, if not externally beckoning in any literal sense.

 

i also think that the discussion could lead, ultimately, to the factors present in the formation of belief systems and the supernatural as precursors to accepting prayer on faith in spite of the clearly massive, massive confirmation biases involved in filtering information to "prove" the efficacy of prayer.



#32 GOOGLE RON PAUL

GOOGLE RON PAUL

    fleet-footed poster

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,115 posts

Posted 24 June 2013 - 02:05 AM

i'm not trying to argue about your methods, but i just want to explain how this looks to me, as a deist.
If I give an example of how I used prayer to help me in some facet of life... you counter with an explanation about how praying helped me by me actually maintaining focus, rather than by divine intervention, correct?

To me it seems a waste of time to try to contribute to a thread where the primary purpose is to look at prayer through the lenses of logic.

 

if you're a deist, why are you praying?



#33 googoodan

googoodan

    Memberest

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,648 posts
  • LocationBayside

Posted 24 June 2013 - 03:12 AM

if you're a deist, why are you praying?

probably wasn't the right word to use. I do not believe in the modern organization and money making ways of the church, but I definitely believe in salvation through Jesus Christ, which can only be attained through prayer.

I definitely do not consider myself a Jeffersonian deist. I believe the universe was created to be self-sustaining. For example, God does not send a tornado to Oklahoma to punish people; He only created the methods of keeping water and streams of air moving around the world.

I do reject the modern Christian usage of prayer as a magic lamp with a genie inside.

#34 Cat

Cat

    Terminally bored

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,543 posts

Posted 24 June 2013 - 05:59 AM

My six year old thinks if he blinks really fast while a progress bar is loading that his data will load faster. There have been times where I've witnessed the progress bar speed up and load at a faster rate when he starts his little blinking ritual. The times it works for him are evidence enough to him that the blinking ritual does work. I don't mean any offense with that story but that is how I see people with prayer. And if it really worked and it was strong enough to move mountains and do the impossible then why are the only prayer request that I "see" being answered are the mundane everyday stuff like a progress bar loading faster? Why not manna from heaven to feed the hungry, amputees regrowing body parts and deformities disappearing?



#35 Cat

Cat

    Terminally bored

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,543 posts

Posted 24 June 2013 - 06:01 AM

probably wasn't the right word to use. I do not believe in the modern organization and money making ways of the church, but I definitely believe in salvation through Jesus Christ, which can only be attained through prayer.

I definitely do not consider myself a Jeffersonian deist. I believe the universe was created to be self-sustaining. For example, God does not send a tornado to Oklahoma to punish people; He only created the methods of keeping water and streams of air moving around the world.

I do reject the modern Christian usage of prayer as a magic lamp with a genie inside.

 

I think that falls under theist.



#36 Zod

Zod

    YOUR RULER

  • MFCEO
  • 20,086 posts

Posted 24 June 2013 - 06:43 AM

I am all for prayer if it helps the person doing the prayer feel better about themselves or situations.

 

 

I do not like prayer when it replaces actual action or good deeds. This is a common one on facebook.

 

Example....

 

 

Our poor little cousin was diagnosed with cancer and needs to undergo treatments.

 

- Oh dear thats awful, I will pray for him

- So Sad, prayers going out!

- Please know that he is in our prayers!

 

 

 

Here we have no real concern and no real help. It does nothing but make the person that wrote it feel better about themselves, look what a nice person I am I am praying for someone! How about throwing a dinner their way. How about sending the kid a toy off Amazon. My gut tells me that if there is a god up there he is going to ask those folks why they did not get off their lazy fat asses and do something instead of begging him to do it all the time.

 



#37 Doc Holiday

Doc Holiday

    NON FACETE NOBIS CALCITRARE VESTRVM PERINAEVM

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,926 posts

Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:14 AM

I think too many people view prayer as the equivalent of writing Santa a letter before Christmas, a lot of churches say if you want something pray about it, but IMHO if you want something you need to do something about it. I've grown to believe that prayer should be used more for spiritual meditation and as a way to ask and thank God for guidance on how to handle situations but as far as something to use to get something I don't think so.

#38 Zod

Zod

    YOUR RULER

  • MFCEO
  • 20,086 posts

Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:19 AM

I do believe the brain can do lots of things we don't fully understand. Prayer could possibly be a self administration of the power of suggestion. I think I will try it out for a few weeks. Now I only need to pick which god to pray to. Any suggestions?

#39 Cat

Cat

    Terminally bored

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,543 posts

Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:26 AM

I've heard praying to a can of SPAM has worked.

#40 Doc Holiday

Doc Holiday

    NON FACETE NOBIS CALCITRARE VESTRVM PERINAEVM

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,926 posts

Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:38 AM

I do believe the brain can do lots of things we don't fully understand. Prayer could possibly be a self administration of the power of suggestion. I think I will try it out for a few weeks. Now I only need to pick which god to pray to. Any suggestions?

Dionysus, always a good choice when there is one to be made!

#41 Darth Biscuit

Darth Biscuit

    Dark Lord

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,983 posts
  • LocationWilmington, NC

Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:48 AM

Zod makes a good point about actions not words...

 

The other thing that bothers me, much like Philly's OP is not the act of prayer itself, but the reaction to the aftermath of things prayed for.  His chart pretty well explains it.  There is certainly an argument to be made for always looking at the positive side of things, but one could also argue that always spinning the outcome of something prayed for to be exactly what god wanted as sticking your head in the sand.

 

I asked my son last night when we were watching that nut on the wire if he fell, does that mean that god disapproved of what he was doing?  I'm sure it wouldn't have been that reaction from the religious crowd.

 

Also, what would be said if that guy had been praying to some other god and he was successful?

 



#42 pstall

pstall

    Gazebo Effect

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,304 posts
  • LocationMontford

Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:51 AM

the phrase i introduce many moons ago to the huddle, confirmation bias, is proof positive how you can incorrectly view prayer and the outcomes or lack there of.

 

i would always crack up when someone would say i have been praying about X and i think God is showing me Y and I go you know man, we don't really know at times what God was trying to tell us until years later.

 

Not getting a job doesn't mean God is against you etc. If you want to take a spiritual viewpoint then maybe God realized you would have become greedy working 60 hrs a week when you didin't have to or a certain man or woman there would have been a temptation for you. You don't really know.

 

So essentially alot of what many of you are saying is right in how prayer can be reduced to the wrong things. Even going to church can be a superstition for many. They feel if they don't go then God somehow won't bless them. Again, thats the wrong heart and attitude to have. You don't go to get stuff. You go to give.

 

BTW. Trying to apply logic to something is works outside of logic will be quite the unfruitful endeavor. You have a better chance understanding Marty Hurney's draft day choices....



#43 Cat

Cat

    Terminally bored

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,543 posts

Posted 24 June 2013 - 10:04 AM

the phrase i introduce many moons ago to the huddle, confirmation bias, is proof positive how you can incorrectly view prayer and the outcomes or lack there of.

 

i would always crack up when someone would say i have been praying about X and i think God is showing me Y and I go you know man, we don't really know at times what God was trying to tell us until years later.

 

Not getting a job doesn't mean God is against you etc. If you want to take a spiritual viewpoint then maybe God realized you would have become greedy working 60 hrs a week when you didin't have to or a certain man or woman there would have been a temptation for you. You don't really know.

 

So essentially alot of what many of you are saying is right in how prayer can be reduced to the wrong things. Even going to church can be a superstition for many. They feel if they don't go then God somehow won't bless them. Again, thats the wrong heart and attitude to have. You don't go to get stuff. You go to give.

 

BTW. Trying to apply logic to something is works outside of logic will be quite the unfruitful endeavor. You have a better chance understanding Marty Hurney's draft day choices....
 

 

 

So you're admitting it's illogical. If so then I have 0 to go off of and might as well pray to a tomato plant or wear dirty socks, or whatever superstitious thing you can imagine.

 

 

Question how do you know what god is trying to tell you years later? Logic, emotions? 



#44 pstall

pstall

    Gazebo Effect

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,304 posts
  • LocationMontford

Posted 24 June 2013 - 10:10 AM

As I stated earlier, prayer works outside the realm of how we understand logic. We try to fit into our standards of understanding and when we can't get there, the best we can do is go oh its illogical.

 

Which brings us to the ying and yang of faith. Which also goes totally against logic. And around and around we go.



#45 Cat

Cat

    Terminally bored

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,543 posts

Posted 24 June 2013 - 10:15 AM

As I stated earlier, prayer works outside the realm of how we understand logic. We try to fit into our standards of understanding and when we can't get there, the best we can do is go oh its illogical.

 

Which brings us to the ying and yang of faith. Which also goes totally against logic. And around and around we go.

 

I'll skip the counter apologetic response and just say I sure hope you don't scoff at people who believe they are Elvis reincarnated or any other bizarre illogical unfalsifiable belief (I'm thinking of the Cincinnati fans that jiggle pickles at the TV screen when the Bengals game is on) lol




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Shop at Amazon Contact Us: info@carolinahuddle.com