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Yas: Keuchly 9th best player in the south


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#46 panthers55

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:27 AM


- Like it or not, Revis is the best corner in the NFL until proven otherwise. He's earned the benefit of the doubt.

- Numbers don't highlight everything. Take McCoy out of that starting line up, and The Bucs' DL isn't as effective up the middle. Miller was a two-down DT with limited pass rush. In addition, Gerald did a better job at defending against the run than D. Edwards.

Revis used to be a great corner. Right now he is coming off injury and has to prove he still has it not the other way around. And your McCoy argument makes little sense. Saying they would be bad without him doesn't make him great it speaks to a lack of depth. And if it he is better against the run than Edwards then why did Edwards have almost twice as many tackles. And if everyone passed more against the bucks then why did Edwards get more sacks with little help in the middle. I am not arguing that Edwards should be up there simply that McCoy is overrated and had a mediocre year and others deserve that spot.

#47 Cyberjag

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:43 AM

Revis used to be a great corner. Right now he is coming off injury and has to prove he still has it not the other way around. And your McCoy argument makes little sense. Saying they would be bad without him doesn't make him great it speaks to a lack of depth. And if it he is better against the run than Edwards then why did Edwards have almost twice as many tackles. And if everyone passed more against the bucks then why did Edwards get more sacks with little help in the middle. I am not arguing that Edwards should be up there simply that McCoy is overrated and had a mediocre year and others deserve that spot.

 

Curious...  Do the Buc's run the same scheme that the Jets did?  If not, is it one that would take full advantage of Revis' skills?  Assuming he's healthy of course.  A couple of years ago Nnamdi Asomugha was considered to be one of the best, if not the best corner in the league, and went to the Eagles.  He wasn't nearly as effective in their scheme as he had been in Oakland. Like Revis, he was solid in physical man-to-man coverage, but he ended up being lost in the zone.

 

So basically, while Revis could be a hell of a talent if he's fully recovered, that doesn't mean he will be effective, does it?  I know Schiano made some changes, but don't the Buc's still run a lot of Tampa 2?  And I'm asking here, because I'm too lazy to go look it up. :)



#48 Promethean Forerunner

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:59 AM

Kuechly already rated higher than Smitty, C J and Kalil based on just his rookie season?

I like Luke, but I'm not sure I'd go that far.


Judging from what he did in his rookie season, I say otherwise. Smitty isn't what he use to be and Kalil struggled a bit (prior to the injury). Kuechly, in my opinion, deserves the spot.

#49 Promethean Forerunner

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:08 AM

Revis used to be a great corner. Right now he is coming off injury and has to prove he still has it not the other way around. And your McCoy argument makes little sense. Saying they would be bad without him doesn't make him great it speaks to a lack of depth. And if it he is better against the run than Edwards then why did Edwards have almost twice as many tackles. And if everyone passed more against the bucks then why did Edwards get more sacks with little help in the middle. I am not arguing that Edwards should be up there simply that McCoy is overrated and had a mediocre year and others deserve that spot.


Again, until proven otherwise, Revis is the best corner in the NFL.

Ummm, no it's not. You're easily swayed by numbers but accumulating more tackles than another player doesn't mean 'superiority'. Kevin Williams had a 33 tackle season, and he was still a dominant DT that very season. Now McCoy wasn't that impactful but he was paramount to The Bucs' rushing defense in 2012, especially since Tampa lacks a linebacking core.

#50 jamos14

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:22 AM

I am not arguing otherwise.  My point is if it is too early to rank Martin in the top 10, then I would figure he would agree it is too early to rank Kuechly in the top 10 as well considering both have the same amount of years played.  Unless somehow it is "different."  

 

On that same token, Charles Johnson is once again criminally underrated.  Kuechly, as of this moment, is not better than him.

 

You bring up a good point. I should take of my Panthers blue sunglasses.

 



#51 BigBoss

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:41 PM

I don't think Yas will rank him either, but I can certainly see him having the bigger season.  He's gotten better each year, and he's playing for his next contract.

 

I bet we can all go around and around on who will do better, CJ or the Kraken, but is there anyone out there who doesn't think each will have a better year than Bowers?

 

I agree, both are most certainly better than Bowers.



#52 panthers55

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:33 PM

Curious...  Do the Buc's run the same scheme that the Jets did?  If not, is it one that would take full advantage of Revis' skills?  Assuming he's healthy of course.  A couple of years ago Nnamdi Asomugha was considered to be one of the best, if not the best corner in the league, and went to the Eagles.  He wasn't nearly as effective in their scheme as he had been in Oakland. Like Revis, he was solid in physical man-to-man coverage, but he ended up being lost in the zone.

 

So basically, while Revis could be a hell of a talent if he's fully recovered, that doesn't mean he will be effective, does it?  I know Schiano made some changes, but don't the Buc's still run a lot of Tampa 2?  And I'm asking here, because I'm too lazy to go look it up. :)

Actually I get the sense that they use a lot of man to man as well as some  zone looks.  I suspect that Tampa uses more 4-3 looks and blitz less than the Jets who are one of the only teams to run the 46 and an aggressive 3-4 which made the secondary more effective. It remains to be seen if he will suffer any ill effects of his injury in terms of closing speed and quickness to the ball.  Tampa will play press coverage with the corners they have.  



#53 panthers55

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:47 PM

Again, until proven otherwise, Revis is the best corner in the NFL.

Ummm, no it's not. You're easily swayed by numbers but accumulating more tackles than another player doesn't mean 'superiority'. Kevin Williams had a 33 tackle season, and he was still a dominant DT that very season. Now McCoy wasn't that impactful but he was paramount to The Bucs' rushing defense in 2012, especially since Tampa lacks a linebacking core.

The list is about who are the best players in the South not about who was most important to their team.  McCoy is not the eight best player in the south this year or last year as well.  Making more tackles especially as a percentage of total opportunities has to mean you are more impactful in the run game.  I wouldn't be surprised if by next season, Star or Short are rated above him



#54 Promethean Forerunner

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:26 PM

The list is about who are the best players in the South not about who was most important to their team. McCoy is not the eight best player in the south this year or last year as well. Making more tackles especially as a percentage of total opportunities has to mean you are more impactful in the run game. I wouldn't be surprised if by next season, Star or Short are rated above him


Once again, NO. You need to stop with this absurd argumentative point. Sapp had 32 tackles in 2006, and he was still in All-Pro form in rushing the passer and stopping the run. You make not agree to where I rank McCoy in the NFC South but I don't care. He is essential to The Bucs' run defense. Seriously, I'd hate to see where you would rank Star if he were to amass just 30+ tackles.

#55 panthers55

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:01 PM

Once again, NO. You need to stop with this absurd argumentative point. Sapp had 32 tackles in 2006, and he was still in All-Pro form in rushing the passer and stopping the run. You make not agree to where I rank McCoy in the NFC South but I don't care. He is essential to The Bucs' run defense. Seriously, I'd hate to see where you would rank Star if he were to amass just 30+ tackles.

You are taking 2 examples over a large period of time and making that your standard for evaluating every player in every situation.  And even then you are only using very selective and skewed numbers to try and make a point. For example in 2006 Sapp had 32 solo tackles and 15 assists for a total of 47 tackles. That is well above McCoy's 27 solo sacks and only 3 assists or a total of 30 combined which is  difference of 60% . Add 10 sacks to McCoy's 5 and you have a 100% increase in the number of sacks compared to McCoy in 2012. The only absurb comparison here is yours.  McCoy couldn't hold Sapp's jock strap and the numbers support it. Ask any Tampa fan if they think McCoy is even close to Sapp and they will look incredulously at you.

 

Where would I rate Star if he gets 30 plus tackles?  If he got more sacks than McCoy I would rate him above McCoy since McCoy's 30 combined is a career high.  Duh!!



#56 Beast_3000

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:03 PM

Hardy will. Beason and Evans won't.


Yeah I think Hardy will be #8

#57 Promethean Forerunner

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:02 AM

You are taking 2 examples over a large period of time and making that your standard for evaluating every player in every situation.  And even then you are only using very selective and skewed numbers to try and make a point. For example in 2006 Sapp had 32 solo tackles and 15 assists for a total of 47 tackles. That is well above McCoy's 27 solo sacks and only 3 assists or a total of 30 combined which is  difference of 60% . Add 10 sacks to McCoy's 5 and you have a 100% increase in the number of sacks compared to McCoy in 2012. The only absurb comparison here is yours.  McCoy couldn't hold Sapp's jock strap and the numbers support it. Ask any Tampa fan if they think McCoy is even close to Sapp and they will look incredulously at you.

 

Where would I rate Star if he gets 30 plus tackles?  If he got more sacks than McCoy I would rate him above McCoy since McCoy's 30 combined is a career high.  Duh!!

 

The standard? No. You're desperately trying to discredit a very good season just because he accounted for 30 tackles (Roy Miller had 24 in total). Do you know how moronic you sound right now? McCoy's contributions were perhaps thee reason why running backs had a difficult time going up the middle. Somehow though, it's shot over your pea-sized brain -- "Derp, 30 tackles equals average. Durrrr." It's the equivalent of claiming that a safety with only one interception had a mediocre season. "Duh!!!" 

 

Seriously, find a neurologist, or a special needs assistant.



#58 panthers55

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 07:14 AM

The standard? No. You're desperately trying to discredit a very good season just because he accounted for 30 tackles (Roy Miller had 24 in total). Do you know how moronic you sound right now? McCoy's contributions were perhaps thee reason why running backs had a difficult time going up the middle. Somehow though, it's shot over your pea-sized brain -- "Derp, 30 tackles equals average. Durrrr." It's the equivalent of claiming that a safety with only one interception had a mediocre season. "Duh!!!" 

 

Seriously, find a neurologist, or a special needs assistant.

You really can't stand being wrong and when you are you resort to childish personal attacks in an attempt to try and discredit someone instead of dealing with the content of the argument,  If you want to appear an adult instead of a middle schooler why not stop the juvenile tactics. 

You could have made the argument that McCoy was important to their run defense up the middle without the infantile attacks and you might have some credibility.  Being smarter than a fifth grader doesn't mean you have to act like one. 



#59 MasterAwesome

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:01 PM

Cam at 6:

http://espn.go.com/b...FC-South-top-25

 

There's still one question mark before the list is over...the locks are:

 

Matt Ryan

Drew Brees

Julio Jones

Darrelle Revis

 

The 5th is almost certainly Jahri Evans...but I didn't think that he'd be this high.  I obviously don't really keep up with other teams' offensive linemen (except when they get destroyed by Hardy/Johnson on any given week), but he gets a lot of respect year after year and he started in the Pro Bowl last year as well.  But still, it'd be crazy for him to get left off this list altogether.  Part of me still thinks it could be Hardy though :(

 



#60 xerxes

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 12:59 PM

From the NFC South chat:

 

Cory (Johnson City): Pat, How can you have Bowers ranked ahead of Hardy on your top 25??? Surely must have been a mistaken omission? 

 

PY: Not an omission. I expect Bowers to have a better season than Hardy. 

Joel (NC): Pat, you know from my comments that while a Panthers fan, I am not a Homer. But I think you might be the only one on a very weak branch saying Bowers is going to outperform Hardy. I would go out on a limb and say Hardy will have the most productive season of any DE in the entire NFC South. 

PY: You could end up being right. We'll see. 

 

Allen (Ellenboro): I'm sorry pat but Bowers ahead of Hardy is nonsense. Hardy had 6.5 more sacks last year than Bowers has had in his entire career. I don't see Hardy regressing this year with the improved Panthers D -line and no way Bowers suddenly becomes an elite pass rusher.

 

PY: If I'm wrong, hit me up at the end of the season.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcsouth/post/_/id/48932/film-of-the-nfc-south-chat-63

 

At least he admits he might be wrong.

 




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