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Hendo Gone?

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Posted

Henderson missed 12 games of 82... that's not exactly a significant portion. It still allows him to be qualified in advanced statistics rating.

 

As far as debating positions...

 

Ellis isn't a true shooting guard, so there is that... he has broken up two different back-courts now (Curry-Ellis, Jennings-Ellis) because he plays more like a point guard (one reason his assist count is so high) than a shooting guard. Monta Ellis's career numbers are going to be better than Henderson's because Ellis averages 7 more shot attempts per game than Henderson throughout both of their careers. I also want to remind you that Henderson didn't see the floor as a rookie because of Stephen Jackson and Raja Bell. He saw action as a pure back-up in his second season and in his third season he finally got to prove himself. Henderson started and recorded 15.1 points per game on 13.1 shots compared to Ellis's 19.7 points per game on 17.5 shots per game. It's weird because the number of shots Henderson took per game this year (12.6) decreased while his scoring numbers and efficiency increased (15.5 ppg) where as Ellis's numbers are nearly identical (17.5 shots per game) but his scoring efficiency decreased (19.2 ppg)...

 

If you want to argue which one is better suited for the Bobcats, there is no question it's Henderson. Ellis is the worst combo guard at shooting three's in the entire league. He plays too much like Kemba for them to be successful. I guarantee you that if we acquire Ellis, he will be the reason Kemba eventually leaves.

 

As far as George, there is no debate. Indiana has already expressed their desire to move Granger so that George can play his natural position... check a program, nba.com, espn.com... what position George guarded this year (i.e. LBJ)... the guys is a small forward.

 

 

 

I don't disagree that Henderson is the better fit.  I would also argue Ellis is more of a PG than a true SG or 2 if you will.  But if you want to talk about who the most productive player is over a span of a career its Ellis without question.  He may average more shots but he also doesn't come out of games.  Not to mention his career assist averages.  We can speculate what his signing on in Charlotte would mean for himself Kemba or even Ramon but Ellis is simply a more productive player overall.  The fact that he put up the stats he did while playing in that cluster fug in Milwaukee is why I don't base my sole opinion on one years 'advance statistics'  But I am well aware of them. 

 

As for checking a program or a player profile I can guarantee they will all list him just a bit differently.  George is best described as a swingman and just calling him a 3 won't take away from his abilities as a guard.  But if you want to rank guards then I guess leave one of the best guards out. 

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Posted

Henderson missed 12 games of 82... that's not exactly a significant portion. It still allows him to be qualified in advanced statistics rating.

 

As far as debating positions...

 

Ellis isn't a true shooting guard, so there is that... he has broken up two different back-courts now (Curry-Ellis, Jennings-Ellis) because he plays more like a point guard (one reason his assist count is so high) than a shooting guard. Monta Ellis's career numbers are going to be better than Henderson's because Ellis averages 7 more shot attempts per game than Henderson throughout both of their careers. I also want to remind you that Henderson didn't see the floor as a rookie because of Stephen Jackson and Raja Bell. He saw action as a pure back-up in his second season and in his third season he finally got to prove himself. Henderson started and recorded 15.1 points per game on 13.1 shots compared to Ellis's 19.7 points per game on 17.5 shots per game. It's weird because the number of shots Henderson took per game this year (12.6) decreased while his scoring numbers and efficiency increased (15.5 ppg) where as Ellis's numbers are nearly identical (17.5 shots per game) but his scoring efficiency decreased (19.2 ppg)...

 

If you want to argue which one is better suited for the Bobcats, there is no question it's Henderson. Ellis is the worst combo guard at shooting three's in the entire league. He plays too much like Kemba for them to be successful. I guarantee you that if we acquire Ellis, he will be the reason Kemba eventually leaves.

 

As far as George, there is no debate. Indiana has already expressed their desire to move Granger so that George can play his natural position... check a program, nba.com, espn.com... what position George guarded this year (i.e. LBJ)... the guys is a small forward.

 

This is my biggest problem. A backcourt combo should be able to cancel out each other's weaknesses. Kemba and Monta Ellis are such similar players that the offense would become such a clusterf*ck. They share the same strengths and weaknesses

 

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Posted

I don't disagree that Henderson is the better fit.  I would also argue Ellis is more of a PG than a true SG or 2 if you will.  But if you want to talk about who the most productive player is over a span of a career its Ellis without question.  He may average more shots but he also doesn't come out of games.  Not to mention his career assist averages.  We can speculate what his signing on in Charlotte would mean for himself Kemba or even Ramon but Ellis is simply a more productive player overall.  The fact that he put up the stats he did while playing in that cluster fug in Milwaukee is why I don't base my sole opinion on one years 'advance statistics'  But I am well aware of them. 

 

As for checking a program or a player profile I can guarantee they will all list him just a bit differently.  George is best described as a swingman and just calling him a 3 won't take away from his abilities as a guard.  But if you want to rank guards then I guess leave one of the best guards out. 

 

If you are going to argue that George is more of a two than a three, then you have to be able to accept the fact that Ellis is clearly more of a point guard than a shooting guard (unless I am reading your post wrong).

 

Ellis without a doubt will have the better numbers because he has been in the league for nine years compared to Henderson's four. Henderson has also never been given the same opportunities as Ellis. Ellis has only averaged less that 34 minutes per game once in his career (his rookie year). Ellis even averaged over 40 minutes per game twice in his career. Henderson has never averaged more than 33.3 minutes per game in a season. If Henderson, was given the same opportunities as Ellis, we would not be having the discussion right now. Based on Henderson's per 48's and his scoring efficiency per shot, Henderson is the more productive player.

 

As far as the assists go, I already stated that he plays more like a point guard; so of course his assist count is going to be high. I really don't care what his assist total is, because his job is to create shots by spreading the floor not drive to the rim and kick. People complain about Henderson not being a great three point shooter, they will flip out when they see Ellis.

 

I also don't understand how you got the idea that Milwaukee was a cluster fug? If averaging 19 points per game on a "cluster fug" of a team that made the playoffs is amazing, then averaging 15.5 points per game on the sh*t storm that is the Charlotte Bobcats is downright the greatest thing to ever happen in the NBA.

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Posted

 

Monta Ellis plays better Defense, rebounds and passes better than Henderson
 
Monta Ellis:
Points per game: 19.2
Steals per game: 2.1
Blocks per game: .4
Assists per game: 6.0
Rebounds per game: 3.9
 
Gerald Henderson:
Points per game: 15.5
Steals per game: 1.0
Blocks per game: .5
Assists per game: 2.6
Rebounds per game: 3.7

 

 

 

Idk about better defense. Those are subjective stats really. While I applaud that he has more steals I feel that there must be more indicative stats out there to prove Hendo is a better overall defender. I could be wrong but I am curious as to how many points each allows on any given night. Shooting % of the opposing player when guarded by each respectively.

 

 

 

So the stats that everyone uses to evaluate a player are subjective.....and you feel there must be more indicative stats out there to prove your opinion.  Yet, you don't know what they are or where to find them.

 

Gotcha.

 

Basically you think Hendo is a better defender.....just because.

 

Interesting

 

I don't mean to sound like I know it all or anything, but judging how good a player is at defense based solely on steals or blocks is a TERRIBLE way to evaluate said player. Steals and blocks are nice, obviously, but a high steal rate doesn't necessarily equate to good defense. Guys like Bruce Bowen and Thabo Sefolosha are considered great defenders, but they don't average a lot of steals for their career. On the flip side Kemba averaged 2 spg and was top 5 in the league in steals, but he graded out to be an AWFUL defensive player. Actually, looking at it -- this year Thabo averaged his 2nd most amount of spg ever, but had a bad year defensively. 

 

Just for a comparison of one on one defense between Henderson and Ellis.

 

Henderson gave up 0.66 points per possession when he was guarding a player in isolation.

Ellis gave up 0.81 points per possession when he was guarding a player in isolation.

 

Henderson gave up 0.94 points per possession when he was guarding a player in PnR (ballhandler).

Ellis gave up 0.58 points per possession when he was guarding a player in PnR (ballhandler). 

 

I won't really say that one is better defensively than the other, but they both have their strengths and weaknesses. Henderson is the better ISO defender by far, while Ellis is the better PnR defender by far. I feel that Henderson's size sets him a bit apart from Ellis, however. That's just my opinion though. I will also say that you can't fully judge a players defense just based on these Synergy stats, because defense isn't just about you, but also the entire team, as well as the coaching. If you have a defensive minded coach that has a slower offensive system, a good rim protector, and solid defensive players around you then that will make your defensive numbers on Synergy look a ton better. Either way, though steals and blocks aren't a very good way to judge a players defense.

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Posted

I also want to point out this...

 

I went to Fan Appreciation Night when we beat Milwaukee 95-85.

 

Henderson was downright awful... he was 5-18 for 12 points with 4 assists and 3 rebounds.

 

Ellis wasn't that much better... he was 7-18 for 16 points, with 4 assists and 3 rebounds.

 

The real telling story is that while Henderson affects his team positively even when he is having a bad game, Ellis affects the game negatively when he is having a bad game.

 

Ellis actually played the point guard position this game and Kemba abused him for 21 points. Henderson struggled like Ellis (on offense), but unlike Ellis... Henderson played great defense. Henderson held J.J. Redick to 3-14 shooting including 2-11 from downtown.

 

Henderson played horribly on offense but was still able to affect the game positively and actually finished +4 as where Ellis faltered and ended up -10 (which happened to be the amount of points that the Bobcats won by).

 

We don't need a player that will affect the game negatively when he struggles, simple as that.

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Posted

I just want to add that synergy scoring and per possession stats can be misleading as well.

Sometimes a very good defender will grade out worse than a worse defender because he is guarding the better player. So if you are a perimeter player and you are defending the other team's worst perimeter player there is a good chance you will grade highly than if you are guarding the best perimeter player.

Who do you think would grade worse? The guy guarding Kobe Bryant or the guy guarding MWP? Probably the guy guarding Kobe, but that guy is also likely your best defender.

Also in regards to steals. It might not matter as much in the NBA BC of defensive rules and talent levels. But in college often times the perimeter guy that is guarding the worst perimeter player has more freedom to help and gamble on steals whereas your beat defender has to stay closer to his man. Therefore it isn't that uncommon for an inferior defender to have better defensive statistics.

As far as Hendo vs Ellis I haven't watched Ellis enough to really have a strong opinion.

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Posted

DP

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Posting youtube videos does nothing...

 

I could easily just post this video.. something that Ellis has never done and never will do.

 

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If you are going to argue that George is more of a two than a three, then you have to be able to accept the fact that Ellis is clearly more of a point guard than a shooting guard (unless I am reading your post wrong).

 

Ellis without a doubt will have the better numbers because he has been in the league for nine years compared to Henderson's four. Henderson has also never been given the same opportunities as Ellis. Ellis has only averaged less that 34 minutes per game once in his career (his rookie year). Ellis even averaged over 40 minutes per game twice in his career. Henderson has never averaged more than 33.3 minutes per game in a season. If Henderson, was given the same opportunities as Ellis, we would not be having the discussion right now. Based on Henderson's per 48's and his scoring efficiency per shot, Henderson is the more productive player.

 

As far as the assists go, I already stated that he plays more like a point guard; so of course his assist count is going to be high. I really don't care what his assist total is, because his job is to create shots by spreading the floor not drive to the rim and kick. People complain about Henderson not being a great three point shooter, they will flip out when they see Ellis.

 

I also don't understand how you got the idea that Milwaukee was a cluster fug? If averaging 19 points per game on a "cluster fug" of a team that made the playoffs is amazing, then averaging 15.5 points per game on the sh*t storm that is the Charlotte Bobcats is downright the greatest thing to ever happen in the NBA.

 

The Bucks were beyond a cluster fug last year.  One of my co workers and good friends is a big Bucks fan.  I'll set you two up on a phone convo if you need any further explanation.

 

As for me arguing George is more of a 2 than a 3 while not arguing Ellis is more of a 1 than 2 means you did read my post wrong.

 

Again.  George is a swingman.  My only argument.  Swingmen are hybrid 2/3 players.  If I'm going to rank 2s then I'm counting George.. if I'm going to rank 3s then I'm counting George..

 

As for Ellis, I guess you missed where I said I agreed his style of play is more suitable to that of a PG.  Hence his great assist numbers while playing as a 2.  As fas as the minutes and Henderson being given the opportunity, you can't be so sure that the increased minutes could have a slightly negative impact on his overall efficiency.  I love his toughness and he is a likable guy but I'm just not ready to rank him over a player like Ellis.  Its okay to disagree but don't get me wrong.  

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Posted

Posting youtube videos does nothing...

 

I could easily just post this video.. something that Ellis has never done and never will do.

 

He turned over the ball. And we lost that game.

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Posted

if we are posting Henderson videos this one is always a fan fav

 

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