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Hendo Gone?


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#241 CarolinaPanthers8789

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:48 PM

I posted this earlier, but here is what he is capable of when he is given the same minutes that these other shooting guards that are supposedly better than him our given.

 

- Henderson already proved increased usage only makes him a better player... In the months of March and April, his minutes increased to 36.55 mpg. During those two months, he averaged 18.7 points per game on 14.9 shots per game while shooting 45% from the field. He also averaged 3.6 rebounds and 3.6 assists per game. The only thing that decreased was his rebounding by .1 while his points jumped up by 3.2 and his assist numbers jumped up by 1. Henderson's field goal percentage actually was raised significantly simply by playing more.

 

- In the month's of March and April... Gerald Henderson was SIXTH in SHOOTING GUARD SCORING in the NBA behind only Kobe Bryant, James Harden, Dwayne Wade, DeMar DeRozan, and J.R. Smith while playing nearly the same amount of minutes as all the elite and next level shooting guards except Harden and Bryant who average up around 40+ minutes per game.

 



#242 carolina-chuck

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:50 PM

Well, it's 50% of the game my friend, and there are stats to prove that point.


I don't care what the stats say. If I have to choose between Mayo or Hendo to go out and carry my team to win a game, I easily go with Mayo. Mayo is the kind of guy that can do that. Hendo is not that. He's a "role player", Thabo Sefolosha type of SG. And it was pretty humorous to see you put Lance that far down. He simply help carried that Pacers team along with George in the Playoffs.

#243 CarolinaPanthers8789

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:52 PM

So if you're in the Finals who would you have: Iggy, Manu (forget about his plays in the Finals), or Hendo? I'd take Manu or Iggy.

 

That's another stupid (sorry, but it is) argument. 

You are basing your argument on an "if statement".

 

You are also assuming that if we got to the finals Gerald Henderson wouldn't be better than he is now...

 

 

So.... let's say the Panthers get to the Super Bowl... who do you want to be the quarterback Cam Newton (the guy that got you there) or Tom Brady or Peyton Manning (which by the way Iguodala nor Manu are capable of the same impact that either of the two replacement quarterback's I listed are).



#244 CarolinaPanthers8789

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:54 PM

DP 

 



#245 carolina-chuck

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:56 PM

That's another stupid (sorry, but it is) argument.

You are basing your argument on an "if statement".

You are also assuming that if we got to the finals Gerald Henderson wouldn't be better than he is now...


So.... let's say the Panthers get to the Super Bowl... who do you want to be the quarterback Cam Newton (the guy that got you there) or Tom Brady or Peyton Manning (which by the way Iguodala nor Manu are capable of the same impact that either of the two replacement quarterback's I listed are).

Yea, I'd easily take Tom Brady. I'm not stupid

And btw, Hendo isn't a Cam. He's Brandon Lafell. A fan favorite.

#246 CarolinaPanthers8789

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:02 PM

Yea, I'd easily take Tom Brady. I'm not stupid

And btw, Hendo isn't a Cam. He's Brandon Lafell. A fan favorite.

 

Not according to statistics...

 

According to stats. he is a top 10 player at his position these past two years...

 

You can argue it all you want, but facts are based on stats not opinions.



#247 PiratePanther189

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:11 PM

I don't care what the stats say. If I have to choose between Mayo or Hendo to go out and carry my team to win a game, I easily go with Mayo. Mayo is the kind of guy that can do that. Hendo is not that. He's a "role player", Thabo Sefolosha type of SG. And it was pretty humorous to see you put Lance that far down. He simply help carried that Pacers team along with George in the Playoffs.

 

You once again have provided no substance on a topic that you have no grounds, just like I don't, to argue based solely on your opinion. Therefore, I'm not talking about it. If you don't like stats, don't argue. Statistics are how you prove things.

 

It's also interesting that you claim that Stephenson and Paul George (not George and David West, hilarious), "carried" that Pacers team.

 

Are we talking about the same Stephenson that, out of the 19 playoff games that Indiana played, scored less than 10 points in TEN of them? Are you talking about the same Stephenson that was OUTPLAYED (sorry, that means I'm going to talk about defense) by Devin Harris in the First Round, JR Smith in the Second Round, and Dwayne Wade in the conference finals? (sorry again I talked about stats). Look it up or I can list it for you.

 

The Lance Stephenson that hasn't averaged double digit points in a regular season or playoffs in his career?

 

Because if that's the Lance Stephenson you're talking about, I'm pushing it by placing him there. And I did it solely by potential, meaning that I even should have put your beloved OJ Mayo above him.



#248 chubs2496

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:34 PM

OMG u guys and your stats. I hate the stat arguments. Bc u can find a stat for everything nowadays and it's useless.

I'll put it like this if ellis had hendos height and defense and wingspan he would be amazing.

If hendo had Ellis's passing dribbling and athletic ability and just overall talent he too would be amazing.

Each player has something that they excel at. And each are talented players. Hendo plays good D. But one players defense dosent win u games. It may help a whole lot but it's a team game. Team defense and team offense overall.
And the same goes for offense. One player dosent Win the game by themself offensively

So overall comparing these player defense and offense wise is useless to me. It's how they ginna fit here.

Personally don't sign either one of them.

If hendo hasn't been able to take Over this team and become a star with all the scrubs we've had over the years then idk. It's just very aggravating to me. I never have liked that much. He can't shoot. And he just is so frustrating to me.

Ellis on the otherhand will make it all about him and take stupid shots whenever he pleases. He thinks he's mini lebron As he's not. He's got amazing talent driving and what not. But he was born in the wrong body with the wrong mindset. He will tear down the team and we will be the bucks in 2 years.

Poo on em both. Roll with Taylor or go out and tease for Thomson or someoem else. But I'm tired of stats. Weathermen use stats. Eff stats bro

#249 teeray

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:35 PM

Lol. Half of you guys are over selling how good Hendo is but the other half is underselling how good he is.

Both sides are making pretty good arguments so i am not sure Hendo is a top 10 SG but dude is more than just a role player.

BTW Bonnell just tweeted that nothing has changed, situation is fluid, and that Buzzcats are not in a rush.

#250 ItsPantone278

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:47 PM

He also played with Baron Davis who doesn't like him.
 
And Steph Curry who doesn't like him.
 
 
This will be the 4th time he is pared up with a PG who will end up not liking him.
 
 
 
 
I do have another question what bigman has flourished with Ellis as the SG.

 
 
Dont confuse me for someone who wants Ellis here, I'd much prefer the fit of Hendo, but that doesn't mean I think Hendo is the hands down better player..
 
 


 

OMG u guys and your stats. I hate the stat arguments. Bc u can find a stat for everything nowadays and it's useless.

I'll put it like this if ellis had hendos height and defense and wingspan he would be amazing.

If hendo had Ellis's passing dribbling and athletic ability and just overall talent he too would be amazing.

Each player has something that they excel at. And each are talented players. Hendo plays good D. But one players defense dosent win u games. It may help a whole lot but it's a team game. Team defense and team offense overall.
And the same goes for offense. One player dosent Win the game by themself offensively

So overall comparing these player defense and offense wise is useless to me. It's how they ginna fit here.

Personally don't sign either one of them.

If hendo hasn't been able to take Over this team and become a star with all the scrubs we've had over the years then idk. It's just very aggravating to me. I never have liked that much. He can't shoot. And he just is so frustrating to me.

Ellis on the otherhand will make it all about him and take stupid shots whenever he pleases. He thinks he's mini lebron As he's not. He's got amazing talent driving and what not. But he was born in the wrong body with the wrong mindset. He will tear down the team and we will be the bucks in 2 years.

Poo on em both. Roll with Taylor or go out and tease for Thomson or someoem else. But I'm tired of stats. Weathermen use stats. Eff stats bro

 


Solid post.  Sums up my feelings to a t though I would sign one for the right price.  I wouldn't over commit to Hendo because he is what he is.  If he wants "top 10 player at his position based on advance stats" $$$ then I don't see the value.  
 
 
 

I posted this earlier, but here is what he is capable of when he is given the same minutes that these other shooting guards that are supposedly better than him our given.
 
- Henderson already proved increased usage only makes him a better player... In the months of March and April, his minutes increased to 36.55 mpg. During those two months, he averaged 18.7 points per game on 14.9 shots per game while shooting 45% from the field. He also averaged 3.6 rebounds and 3.6 assists per game. The only thing that decreased was his rebounding by .1 while his points jumped up by 3.2 and his assist numbers jumped up by 1. Henderson's field goal percentage actually was raised significantly simply by playing more.
 
- In the month's of March and April... Gerald Henderson was SIXTH in SHOOTING GUARD SCORING in the NBA behind only Kobe Bryant, James Harden, Dwayne Wade, DeMar DeRozan, and J.R. Smith while playing nearly the same amount of minutes as all the elite and next level shooting guards except Harden and Bryant who average up around 40+ minutes per game.


 
You continue to look at stats in a vacuum.  Does any team even scout the Cats?  We've both watched Hendo play the jury is still out on if he can score when teams aim to stop him.  He is what he is.  If maintains his positive trend he can be a good player and is well worth our interest but stats are just stats, they don't tell the whole story or even most of it.



#251 chubs2496

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:55 PM

I agree Pantone

It comes down to pricing. If hendo is wanting 10 mill or even 8-9 I'm saying no. He's not gonna get that from anyone IMO.
Same with ellis. I feels the better player at this stage in his career and will continue to be a scorer with bad defense. But am I wiling to give him 12-13 mill. Nah idk.

But yeah I want hendo back Bc he helps us out more and fits well with what we have. If only he could shoot lol. But not at that 10 mill price

#252 CarolinaPanthers8789

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:56 PM

I didn't want to say this because I didn't want to sound like a know it all prick, but I'll go for it...

I'm probably one of if not the only person that saw Mayo play live this year, so here is my two cents.

He is a good player, there is denying that. I particularly remember him because he was out there for a long time, 43 out of the 53 minutes (the game went to OT). Mayo is a really good outside shooter and that is where he is the most comfortable at. He killed us on catch and shoots from Collison passes. He shot the ball at a high percentage, 50% to be exact. However, he provides nothing other than scoring. He only recorded one rebound and two assists in 43 minutes of play. That almost negates the fact that he scored 22 points. Just by watching Mayo I could tell he is only concerned with the offensive side of the game. Unfortunately, Henderson was out for that game with an injury; so I wasn't able to asses those two directly against each other.

I think the reason Chuck likes Mayo is because Mayo is an offense first type of player, but by the end of the year Henderson was putting up better offensive numbers than Mayo. So on top of finishing better than Mayo offensively, Henderson has shown he is a better defender, rebounder, and passer... To be honest besides offensively, this isn't even an argument... Henderson is the better player, and even these past two years, Henderson has proven to be better than Mayo offensively.

If you think Mayo is better than Henderson, at least state that as your opinion; because statistically wise Henderson is better. Hell, even the eye test is Henderson's favor. There is literally not one thing that Mayo has over Henderson outside of his perimeter game.

I think Bobcat fans are too enamored with the big names when in fact Walker and Henderson were one of the better back courts in the league this past year combining for over 32 points per game.

#253 CarolinaPanthers8789

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:11 PM



Dont confuse me for someone who wants Ellis here, I'd much prefer the fit of Hendo, but that doesn't mean I think Hendo is the hands down better player..








Solid post. Sums up my feelings to a t though I would sign one for the right price. I wouldn't over commit to Hendo because he is what he is. If he wants "top 10 player at his position based on advance stats" $$$ then I don't see the value.





You continue to look at stats in a vacuum. Does any team even scout the Cats? We've both watched Hendo play the jury is still out on if he can score when teams aim to stop him. He is what he is. If maintains his positive trend he can be a good player and is well worth our interest but stats are just stats, they don't tell the whole story or even most of it.


- I'm looking at stats the way they are meant to be looked at... The idea of stats is to place players on level playing fields so you can see who is clearly better. I have combatted every post you have made with a statistic followed up by an opinion. If you want I could just be that prick that says I know more because I'm a sport management major with a minor in coaching that has taken top notch advanced statistics classes (but that just makes me an ass).

- I use stats because I don't want to sound like a dick and say I was there when Henderson dropped 35 points on the Celtics in 38 minutes while shooting 58% from the field...

- As far as teams scouting the Cats... I hope that wasn't a serious question because you never overlook a team.

- Teams will never be able to make Henderson the focal point of there defense (if he returns) now that the Cats have Jefferson to command a double team in the post there is literally no telling how good Henderson and Walker can be if they develop a consistent outside jump shot.

- Stats tell 50% of the story, that's why you never hear anyone say a player had a good game when scored 15 points but was 4-15 shooting and seven of his points came at the free throw line. For the other 50%, we use what we call the eye test. The eye test is used to to argue a players technical game. For example: Danny Green was one of the most impressive movers off the ball in the playoffs this year or Danny Green was one of the best transition defenders in the playoffs this season. Rich Cho developed an entire program on stats to help him and the team out when it comes to free agency in the draft. So to say that stats don't tell even half of the story would a false statement.

#254 CarolinaPanthers8789

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:20 PM

I agree Pantone

It comes down to pricing. If hendo is wanting 10 mill or even 8-9 I'm saying no. He's not gonna get that from anyone IMO.
Same with ellis. I feels the better player at this stage in his career and will continue to be a scorer with bad defense. But am I wiling to give him 12-13 mill. Nah idk.

But yeah I want hendo back Bc he helps us out more and fits well with what we have. If only he could shoot lol. But not at that 10 mill price


Henderson has gotten a lot better at shooting. I won't use his two point field goal percentage because around 65% of his offense is within 15 feet of the basket, but Henderson did increase his three point percentage by .100 over these past two years. He currently sits at .330 from the perimeter which is way better than Ellis. I think Mark Price could get Henderson up to the .380 range and if he does, it's game over because teams would have to game plan for every facet of his game.

#255 ItsPantone278

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:24 PM

- I'm looking at stats the way they are meant to be looked at... The idea of stats is to place players on level playing fields so you can see who is clearly better. I have combatted every post you have made with a statistic followed up by an opinion. If you want I could just be that prick that says I know more because I'm a sport management major with a minor in coaching that has taken top notch advanced statistics classes (but that just makes me an ass).

- I use stats because I don't want to sound like a dick and say I was there when Henderson dropped 35 points on the Celtics in 38 minutes while shooting 58% from the field...

- As far as teams scouting the Cats... I hope that wasn't a serious question because you never overlook a team.

- Teams will never be able to make Henderson the focal point of there defense (if he returns) now that the Cats have Jefferson to command a double team in the post there is literally no telling how good Henderson and Walker can be if they develop a consistent outside jump shot.

- Stats tell 50% of the story, that's why you never hear anyone say a player had a good game when scored 15 points but was 4-15 shooting and seven of his points came at the free throw line. For the other 50%, we use what we call the eye test. The eye test is used to to argue a players technical game. For example: Danny Green was one of the most impressive movers off the ball in the playoffs this year or Danny Green was one of the best transition defenders in the playoffs this season. Rich Cho developed an entire program on stats to help him and the team out when it comes to free agency in the draft. So to say that stats don't tell even half of the story would a false statement.

 

Not only are those two points that I have bold contradictory statements but the first point in bold couldn't be farther from the truth and is exactly what I am arguing with you.  You can't put two players on level playing fields.  You can only use stats as a part of your evaluation. 

 

I guess you are far too educated to be wrong about anything.  Rankings are subjective, especially when even the most advance statistics can hardly differentiate.  Stats don't tell you how teams play you, advance stats don't take the time to consider every schedule or match up and there is no way to level this fact.  I could tell you I was there for every game the year Ellis averaged 25 and 5 but what the hell does that matter(does it even matter to you if that statement is true and you see what I mean)?  Stats are great for some comparison but my only argument has been that they don't tell the whole story and you finally without realizing it agreed with the last bold point.




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