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Why do we have lack of "difference maker" talent at select areas? Lets look.


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#46 Kurb

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 07:31 PM

Has Armanti really had a chance? I think he's finally getting that chance and making the most of it. Switching positions isn't easy.


IMO he has.

Maybe a betterbquestion is why hasn't he taken better advantage of his oppritunities.

#47 Cyberjag

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 07:59 PM

I have two things to say about all of this.  And I'm in the mood to type, so the TL/DR message is that Hurney didn't totally suck, he wasn't ever great on his own, and we have the playmakers to be successful.

 

For a couple of years I worked out with some guys who had the good fortune to be professional athletes.  Ok, I didn't work out with them, I happened to be in the box at the same time as they were, and did my best to keep up.  But in that time, we had a lot of really good conversations.  And one thing I took away from their wisdom is how professional sports work.  And it's simple.

 

You have your stars.  And you have your guys who take the field so the stars can show what they can do.

 

This is especially evident in baseball, where a typical team has two or three guys (pitchers excluded) who dominate, and five or six who take the field and their turns at bat so the stars can shine.  It's not so evident in basketball, where again you have two or three guys, but with five playing per side it's not nearly as noticeable.

 

In football, the same principle applies.  And there are 11 players on offense and defense. 

 

Take Newton (assuming he's a star), and put him on the Jaguars.  Their offense is instantly transformed.  Put Smitty in New York and Sanchez no longer looks like the bust he is.  Insert Keuchly anywhere, and watch the defense transform.  You get it?

 

So, where do you get your stars?  Almost always, you get them in the first round.  And bitch about Hurney all you want, he tended to nail his first round picks.  And that's why the Panthers were always in the hunt in the Fox years.  Despite not having a true franchise QB (I love Jake, his is the only jersey I own, but I get it...), the Panthers of the Fox years were always relevant.  No one took us for granted, like they do now.  I believe at the bottom of my heart that had the Patriots not stolen our signals, we would have won it all in 2003.

 

Hurney and Fox were a great team.  They took over a franchise that had never had great direction and gave it an identity.  A lot of people who post here do so because of what they accomplished.  You can bitch about who got what contract, and how much money went to specific positions, but Hurney was always a cap guy and was always able to work a new deal (just like Gettleman was able to get out from under Hurney's "mess"--give me a break) to make salary cap room.  Those complaints don't even register to me.

 

So anyway, when Fox was in his last year, we had Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, Gamble, and Kalil.  Forget everyone else, they're irrelevant.  And quit bitching about a youth movement--we lost Tyler-freaking-Brayton.  Are you really crying about that?  Na'il Diggs?  Really?  Smitty and company were our stars, and the rest is all -meh- as far as big-time talent is concerned. 

 

Our biggest loss?  Julius Peppers.  And he was the biggest mindfug that Hurney had ever had to deal with.  Imagine, a player who just didn't want to be in Hurney's beloved Carolina...  And the biggest issue?  Coaching.  I have a position that people here may hate to acknowledge, but Trgovac was better than Meeks.  Sorry, it's true.  So why did we have Meeks?  And why were we stuck with Davidson?  It was because Fox couldn't hire anyone for longer than a year.  Sound familiar?

 

So anyway, Peppers wants out, Hurney panics, and deals a first rounder for Everette-freaking-Brown.  Yeah, some Huddlers thought it was good at the time, but you don't ever replace a freak like Peppers with someone who unexpectedly slips out of the first round.  I give him a pass for the Otah trade because we were in win-now mode and actually did, but for the first time, Hurney started drafting for need instead of going for BPA.

 

2-14 and the first overall pick later, Hurney takes Cam Newton.  Yay.

 

Now we have Newton, Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, Gamble, and Kalil.  And Ron Rivera is the coach.  And the Hurney/Rivera collaboration gets us in a position to draft Keuchly, so now we have Newton, Keuchly, Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, Gamble, and Kalil.  But Beason and Kalil go down, and Hurney doesn't know why we're losing, so now we have Gettleman/Rivera instead of Hurney/Rivera calling the shots.

 

Want to know what I want to believe?  I want to believe that Rivera offered to help Gettleman just like he helped Hurney.  And just like Fox helped Hurney.  And I want to believe that Gettleman said, "Hey, thanks Ron.  Can you go get me a snow cone?  I have a draft to run here and can't leave the phone."  Because I think that the putrid drafting that we've had in the past few years started because Hurney began going for need, and then he was influenced by Rivera instead of Fox (who's introduction in Denver coincided with early round draft success, fwiw).

 

So now we have Newton, Keuchly, Star, Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, and Kalil.  And over the past couple of years, Johnson and Hardy have emerged.  If we can;t do something with that, then it's all on Rivera, and not on Hurney or Gettleman or Fox or Richardson.  We have our studs, and we have our JAGs to play along side them. 

 

It's time to win.

 



#48 panthers55

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 08:06 PM

Yea, you're making excuses to why we sucked and still suck as of today.
Who did we cut? Some aging vets.

All Harbaugh did was drafted Aldon Smith and revolutionized Alex Smith. They were a talented team playing "bad" under a "bad head coach" before Harbaugh arrived. Similar to us in 2011 when RR arrived and still today. We always had talents but Rivera can't do crap. Just like how he and Chud abandoned the running game even when that was the main source. A good coach find ways within the team and plays to it's strength, i.e. Harbaugh.

2011 we had "talents". 2012 we had talents. And even today we have talents. It all comes down to the HC!!!

We are a "win now" team. We are capable of winning 11-12 games this season. We are a potential "playoffs" team today. Anyone who can't see that like you are just blind and making excuses!!! The only thing that is going to stop us is "RIVERA". If he can grow some damn nuts, the sky is the limit for us.

( and you really want me to start comparing our players in 2011 to SF/Denver? Don't fool yourself )

No one is denigrating Harbaugh or taking anything away from him. He did a good job with the talent he had and really did help Alex Smith.  You would expect that being a former quarterback and a guy who is offensive minded. But the area where he had much more talent was on the defensive side. Alex Smith was and is a game manager who can score points and not screw up.  It is the defense that makes San Fran such a great team.  Something that we didn't have nearly as much talent.

 

As much as you want it to be all Rivera's fault, you are grasping at straws and everyone knows it but you.

 

As for being a win-now team, the term typically means the window is closing and you have to win now or your run is over.  That applies to teams like Denver with Manning who has maybe 2 years left.  Not a team with a new GM and a franchise quarterback who is 25 years  old.

 

The reality is you have no leg to stand on and you are fooling no one. 



#49 panthers55

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 08:50 PM

I have two things to say about all of this.  And I'm in the mood to type, so the TL/DR message is that Hurney didn't totally suck, he wasn't ever great on his own, and we have the playmakers to be successful.

 

For a couple of years I worked out with some guys who had the good fortune to be professional athletes.  Ok, I didn't work out with them, I happened to be in the box at the same time as they were, and did my best to keep up.  But in that time, we had a lot of really good conversations.  And one thing I took away from their wisdom is how professional sports work.  And it's simple.

 

You have your stars.  And you have your guys who take the field so the stars can show what they can do.

 

This is especially evident in baseball, where a typical team has two or three guys (pitchers excluded) who dominate, and five or six who take the field and their turns at bat so the stars can shine.  It's not so evident in basketball, where again you have two or three guys, but with five playing per side it's not nearly as noticeable.

 

In football, the same principle applies.  And there are 11 players on offense and defense. 

 

Take Newton (assuming he's a star), and put him on the Jaguars.  Their offense is instantly transformed.  Put Smitty in New York and Sanchez no longer looks like the bust he is.  Insert Keuchly anywhere, and watch the defense transform.  You get it?

 

So, where do you get your stars?  Almost always, you get them in the first round.  And bitch about Hurney all you want, he tended to nail his first round picks.  And that's why the Panthers were always in the hunt in the Fox years.  Despite not having a true franchise QB (I love Jake, his is the only jersey I own, but I get it...), the Panthers of the Fox years were always relevant.  No one took us for granted, like they do now.  I believe at the bottom of my heart that had the Patriots not stolen our signals, we would have won it all in 2003.

 

Hurney and Fox were a great team.  They took over a franchise that had never had great direction and gave it an identity.  A lot of people who post here do so because of what they accomplished.  You can bitch about who got what contract, and how much money went to specific positions, but Hurney was always a cap guy and was always able to work a new deal (just like Gettleman was able to get out from under Hurney's "mess"--give me a break) to make salary cap room.  Those complaints don't even register to me.

 

So anyway, when Fox was in his last year, we had Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, Gamble, and Kalil.  Forget everyone else, they're irrelevant.  And quit bitching about a youth movement--we lost Tyler-freaking-Brayton.  Are you really crying about that?  Na'il Diggs?  Really?  Smitty and company were our stars, and the rest is all -meh- as far as big-time talent is concerned. 

 

Our biggest loss?  Julius Peppers.  And he was the biggest mindfug that Hurney had ever had to deal with.  Imagine, a player who just didn't want to be in Hurney's beloved Carolina...  And the biggest issue?  Coaching.  I have a position that people here may hate to acknowledge, but Trgovac was better than Meeks.  Sorry, it's true.  So why did we have Meeks?  And why were we stuck with Davidson?  It was because Fox couldn't hire anyone for longer than a year.  Sound familiar?

 

So anyway, Peppers wants out, Hurney panics, and deals a first rounder for Everette-freaking-Brown.  Yeah, some Huddlers thought it was good at the time, but you don't ever replace a freak like Peppers with someone who unexpectedly slips out of the first round.  I give him a pass for the Otah trade because we were in win-now mode and actually did, but for the first time, Hurney started drafting for need instead of going for BPA.

 

2-14 and the first overall pick later, Hurney takes Cam Newton.  Yay.

 

Now we have Newton, Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, Gamble, and Kalil.  And Ron Rivera is the coach.  And the Hurney/Rivera collaboration gets us in a position to draft Keuchly, so now we have Newton, Keuchly, Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, Gamble, and Kalil.  But Beason and Kalil go down, and Hurney doesn't know why we're losing, so now we have Gettleman/Rivera instead of Hurney/Rivera calling the shots.

 

Want to know what I want to believe?  I want to believe that Rivera offered to help Gettleman just like he helped Hurney.  And just like Fox helped Hurney.  And I want to believe that Gettleman said, "Hey, thanks Ron.  Can you go get me a snow cone?  I have a draft to run here and can't leave the phone."  Because I think that the putrid drafting that we've had in the past few years started because Hurney began going for need, and then he was influenced by Rivera instead of Fox (who's introduction in Denver coincided with early round draft success, fwiw).

 

So now we have Newton, Keuchly, Star, Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, and Kalil.  And over the past couple of years, Johnson and Hardy have emerged.  If we can;t do something with that, then it's all on Rivera, and not on Hurney or Gettleman or Fox or Richardson.  We have our studs, and we have our JAGs to play along side them. 

 

It's time to win.

Don't agree that it only takes a handful of guys to be successful. You  won't have 22 stars or first rounders but for example there are 5 guys on the offensive line and when two are not good, you have an average to crappy line.  When you have a star in Smith and no other receiver that can stretch the field you can easy take him away if no one else can make them pay.  Last year  we had all the stars you mentioned except for star and Kalil who was hurt and yet went 7-9.  All Rivera's fault??  Way too pat.  Our secondary sucked and our run defense up the middle was awful. Enough to cause us to lose a ton of games in the fourth quarter.   What you totally downplay is that while not everyone is a star they all need to be competent and capable of making plays.  Take away Olsen and LaFell and Smitty does little to nothing.  Take away D. Edwards and Short and teams will run over the tackle all day and when Hardy pinches in, they run around the end all day long.  With our secondary, teams have and will be throwing all day unless some guys step up and while not stars play like ones.  Those other players are not stars but they aren't just guys.

 

And the biggest elephant in the room is that you blame Rivera if our teams underperforms and ignore the only guys that actually control everything that happens on the field.  The players themselves. Why  is it all Rivera's fault if Newton throws a pick late in the game which the other team runs backs for a pick six.  If the secondary blows some coverages, it is Rivera's fault???  If special teams screws up and gives up 2 TDs, it is Rivera's fault???  Sure you can say that that the coach had something to do with it and might even need to be replaced but so do some of those players.  The coaches job is to put the players in position to make  plays but it is the players job to actually execute. Coachess surely matter but so does the talent on the team.

 

So what happens if a few of those stars get hurt??  Yeah, we need other guys who can step up and play as well or almost as well as those stars.  You expect that from just guys?? If Smitty goes down and Johnson hurts his back again than guys like Alexander are going to have to be more than just guys. Because they play in unglamourous  roles or are backups they may not be stars but they better be competent and able to start in the league. When Beason went down Luke wasn't a star but he played like one and is one now.  If he didn't, we would have been much worse than we were. 

 

You need stars at all the key positions, you need a bunch of other guys who can assume a starting role and play well if needed and be solid in the rotation, you need good depth or luck with injuries, you need schemes which take advantage of the players you have, you need good coaching and you need some luck.

Truth is that every team has 7 or 8 stars so why isn't everyone a playoff team??  All coaching??  Nah. It takes far more than 7 or 8 studs to consistently win.



#50 FattyFatFat

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 08:53 PM

And people cry that its cam's fault that we don't win.

#51 Cyberjag

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 08:59 PM

Don't agree that it only takes a handful of guys to be successful. You  won't have 22 stars or first rounders but for example there are 5 guys on the offensive line and when two are not good, you have an average to crappy line.  When you have a star in Smith and no other receiver that can stretch the field you can easy take him away if no one else can make them pay.  Last year  we had all the stars you mentioned except for star and Kalil who was hurt and yet went 7-9.  All Rivera's fault??  Way too pat.  Our secondary sucked and our run defense up the middle was awful. Enough to cause us to lose a ton of games in the fourth quarter.   What you totally downplay is that while not everyone is a star they all need to be competent and capable of making plays.  Take away Olsen and LaFell and Smitty does little to nothing.  Take away D. Edwards and Short and teams will run over the tackle all day and when Hardy pinches in, they run around the end all day long.  With our secondary, teams have and will be throwing all day unless some guys step up and while not stars play like ones.  Those other players are not stars but they aren't just guys.

 

And the biggest elephant in the room is that you blame Rivera if our teams underperforms and ignore the only guys that actually control everything that happens on the field.  The players themselves. Why  is it all Rivera's fault if Newton throws a pick late in the game which the other team runs backs for a pick six.  If the secondary blows some coverages, it is Rivera's fault???  If special teams screws up and gives up 2 TDs, it is Rivera's fault???  Sure you can say that that the coach had something to do with it and might even need to be replaced but so do some of those players.  The coaches job is to put the players in position to make  plays but it is the players job to actually execute. Coachess surely matter but so does the talent on the team.

 

So what happens if a few of those stars get hurt??  Yeah, we need other guys who can step up and play as well or almost as well as those stars.  You expect that from just guys?? If Smitty goes down and Johnson hurts his back again than guys like Alexander are going to have to be more than just guys. Because they play in unglamourous  roles or are backups they may not be stars but they better be competent and able to start in the league. When Beason went down Luke wasn't a star but he played like one and is one now.  If he didn't, we would have been much worse than we were. 

 

You need stars at all the key positions, you need a bunch of other guys who can assume a starting role and play well if needed and be solid in the rotation, you need good depth or luck with injuries, you need schemes which take advantage of the players you have, you need good coaching and you need some luck.

Truth is that every team has 7 or 8 stars so why isn't everyone a playoff team??  All coaching??  Nah. It takes far more than 7 or 8 studs to consistently win.

 

Did it ever occur to you that the stars may lift some guys more than others? Dwan Edwards doubled his sacks in Carolina.  Could Johnson have had something to do with it?  Maybe not, but I think he did.  Some players will raise their level in response to the stars, and some will be who they are no matter what's going on around them.

 

And yes, it all depends on the player's execution, at least where Teflon Ron is concerned.  No one ever bitched about execution when Fox was unable to win back to back, but now it's all-important to look at the players.  And it's also the GM's fault that we got beat on 7 straight slants, and if it weren't for those damned TopCats, we would have gone for it on fourth and inches...  I get it, ok?

 

 



#52 DaCityKats

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:04 PM

not having consecutive 1st round picks hurt a lot. i think that(talent lacking in some spots), and lack of effective coaching has hurt this team more then anything. some reasons why this team lost could be pointed to either one of those reasons.



#53 panthers55

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:20 PM

Did it ever occur to you that the stars may lift some guys more than others? Dwan Edwards doubled his sacks in Carolina.  Could Johnson have had something to do with it?  Maybe not, but I think he did.  Some players will raise their level in response to the stars, and some will be who they are no matter what's going on around them.

 

And yes, it all depends on the player's execution, at least where Teflon Ron is concerned.  No one ever bitched about execution when Fox was unable to win back to back, but now it's all-important to look at the players.  And it's also the GM's fault that we got beat on 7 straight slants, and if it weren't for those damned TopCats, we would have gone for it on fourth and inches...  I get it, ok?

Did it occur to you that  you have to have guys who are talented who do the dirty work to make the stars look good.  Do running backs look great without the full back slamming into the line on every play and the line blocking their butts off.  

 

With Fox it was more about injuries to key players who were the stars and an inability for other guys to step up that caused the lack off consistency. Really the same thing that has plagued Rivera in his 2 years.  

 l love guys that try to make a global point by picking a minute fact and blowing it way out of proportion as if it was evident to everyone.  Why did they throw 7  slants?  Maybe it was Norman playing 10 yards off the receiver which I am sure Rivera didn't tell him to do.  Otherwise he wouldn't have been replaced.  Still Rivera took the blame like he always does. Yeah that is what teflon guys do, right?? And I guess you missed the article which said we played vanilla in the secondary because the players were so awful not that Rivera or McDermott wanted to play that way. Don't be so naive. Rivera is  a defensive genius who has proven himself over and over.  He surely wouldn't have made such a stupid mistake over and over if he had any other choice. 

 

And lets ignore that if Newton doesn't fumble there is no 4th and inches.  You have to do much better than that if you want to come up with credible examples. 



#54 CRA

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:27 PM

In 2011, Rivera essentially played with zero DTs, zero LBs and 1 guy in the secondary that could cover.

Yet people think that D was comparable to the 49ers in talent?

Only thing that changed in 2012 was he had LBs and lost the one guy in the secondary with coverage skills

#55 Cyberjag

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:27 PM

Not only did it occur to me, I made a point of it.  You always have a collection of guys who are there to do the basics so that the stars can shine.  Sorry you missed that, I guess I wasn't clear enough. :)

 

Reading the rest of your post, all I can ask is, did RR make ANY mistakes in your book?  It's amazing how people make excuses for him...



#56 CRA

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:32 PM

Not only did it occur to me, I made a point of it. You always have a collection of guys who are there to do the basics so that the stars can shine. Sorry you missed that, I guess I wasn't clear enough. :)

Reading the rest of your post, all I can ask is, did RR make ANY mistakes in your book? It's amazing how people make excuses for him...


RR has some basic game management issues.... and played not to lose when he shouldn't of often. He made noticeable changes to those.

He is still a defensive coach.....who hasn't had the talent to call a D or lean on one like he wants.

#57 panthers55

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:42 PM

Not only did it occur to me, I made a point of it.  You always have a collection of guys who are there to do the basics so that the stars can shine.  Sorry you missed that, I guess I wasn't clear enough. :)

 

Reading the rest of your post, all I can ask is, did RR make ANY mistakes in your book?  It's amazing how people make excuses for him...

No what you said was that all it takes is 7 or 8 stars and everyone can be just guys. Maybe that works if those "just guys" plays over their potential and no one gets hurt.  Reading your post did any player screw up  or was it all Rivera's fault.  It amazes me when people make excuses for all the players who actually are on the field and totally lay the blame on a guy who doesn't play one down all day.



#58 Marguide

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 10:01 PM

Why did they throw 7  slants?  Maybe it was Norman playing 10 yards off the receiver which I am sure Rivera didn't tell him to do.


After about the 3rd consecutive successful slant, it was evident that it was a perfect time for a TO to regroup the D. Even were we out of timeouts (I honestly don't remember), you have somebody "suffer from cramps" to give you a chance to regroup.

To just stand there and watch that unfold was a major mistake imo. Everyone could plainly see what was happening and what the outcome was going to be.

The little things separate great coaches from mediocre coaches.

#59 panthers55

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 10:08 PM

After about the 3rd consecutive successful slant, it was evident that it was a perfect time for a TO to regroup the D. Even were we out of timeouts (I honestly don't remember), you have somebody "suffer from cramps" to give you a chance to regroup.

To just stand there and watch that unfold was a major mistake imo. Everyone could plainly see what was happening and what the outcome was going to be.

The little things separate great coaches from mediocre coaches.

Honestly I don't know what was said to Norman or why they didn't adjust.  I just have a hard time believing that a former defensive coordinator who has consistently produced top 5 defenses everywhere he has gone would just sit there and not do anything.  Clearly there was a problem but I figure that the blame has to be at least shared with the players.  That isn't to say Rivera or McDermott don't share the blame just that it isn't all their fault.



#60 PantherFeez

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 11:19 PM

IMO he has.

Maybe a betterbquestion is why hasn't he taken better advantage of his oppritunities.

Armanti got/gets a chance every day of practice like everyone else. The coaches know their players far more than what we see on a Sunday. Players emerge onto the playing field only after they impress their coaches on the practice field.

Kurb, nice write up. I have had similar thoughts before about our draft history. I think JR might have a tendency to pay "his guy" as opposed to paying 10's of millions to some FA that he doesn't know on a personal level. I think JR meshes personal and business too far that at times it can be detrimental to roster decisions. Hopefully JR gives Gettlemagic a leash long enough to let him make some "purchases" in the FA market (and it could continue if it becomes successful). But idk, it's reading into it but JR definitely has a hand on how these past years have played out.


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