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Why do we have lack of "difference maker" talent at select areas? Lets look.


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#41 carolina-chuck

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 06:03 PM

We had just as much talent??? Seriously????

What you forget is that in 2010 we blew up the roster dumped many of the vets and had the worst offense in recent NFL history. Not only did we get rid of many veterans but we didn't have much depth as well. So to assume that we had as much talent is plain ridiculous.

And no we are not a win now team. it may be that way for Rivera but the Panthers..... Not so much.

Yea, you're making excuses to why we sucked and still suck as of today.
Who did we cut? Some aging vets.

All Harbaugh did was drafted Aldon Smith and revolutionized Alex Smith. They were a talented team playing "bad" under a "bad head coach" before Harbaugh arrived. Similar to us in 2011 when RR arrived and still today. We always had talents but Rivera can't do crap. Just like how he and Chud abandoned the running game even when that was the main source. A good coach find ways within the team and plays to it's strength, i.e. Harbaugh.

2011 we had "talents". 2012 we had talents. And even today we have talents. It all comes down to the HC!!!

We are a "win now" team. We are capable of winning 11-12 games this season. We are a potential "playoffs" team today. Anyone who can't see that like you must be blinded and making excuses only!!! The only thing that is going to stop us is "RIVERA". If he can grow some damn nuts, the sky is the limit for us.

( and you really want me to start comparing our players in 2011 to SF/Denver? Don't fool yourself )

#42 Kurb

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 06:09 PM

Yea, you're making excuses to why we sucked and still suck as of today.
Who did we cut? Some aging vets.

All Harbaugh did was drafted Aldon Smith and revolutionized Alex Smith. They were a talented team playing "bad" under a "bad head coach" before Harbaugh arrived. Similar to us in 2011 when RR arrived and still today. We always had talents but Rivera can't do crap. Just like how he and Chud abandoned the running game even when that was the main source. A good coach find ways within the team and plays to it's strength, i.e. Harbaugh.

2011 we had "talents". 2012 we had talents. And even today we have talents. It all comes down to the HC!!!

We are a "win now" team. We are capable of winning 11-12 games this season. We are a potential "playoffs" team today. Anyone who can't see that like you are just blind and making excuses!!! The only thing that is going to stop us is "RIVERA". If he can grow some damn nuts, the sky is the limit for us.

( and you really want me to start comparing our players in 2011 to SF/Denver? Don't fool yourself )


Please do. I can't wait.

#43 pstall

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 06:16 PM

you don't know how a draft really is until a few years later. well, that's what we have here.

 

the team has won the games it has the last 2 years DESPITE itself.

 

at the same time, the Panthers have also lost an unusual amount of close game over the last same time period and if a few more td's here or there or the ball bouncing a dif way, it could have changed what we are talking about for today.but wins and losses are how a sports team is judged.

 

does anybody know what Hurney is doing now BTW?



#44 carolina-chuck

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 06:36 PM

Please do. I can't wait.

 

 

 

Carolina Panthers: 17

QB: Cam Newton

RB: Dwill / Stewart

WR: Steve Smith / LaFell

TE: Olsen / Shockey

O-Line: Gross / Kalil / Wharton

D-Line: CJ / Hardy

LB: Anderson / Connor

DB: Gamble / Godfrey / Captain

ST: Mare / Baker (terrible/not included)

(Edge over SF: QB / RB / WR / TE)

(Edge over Denver: QB / RB / WR / TE/ OL / DL)
 

San Francisco 49ers: 23 (including Kicker/Punter)

QB: Alex Smith

RB: Gore

WR: Crabtree

TE: Davis / Walker

O-Line: Davis, Iupati, Staley, Goodwin

D-Line: Smith / Sopoaga / Jean Francois

LB: Bowman / Willis / Aldon / Brooks

DB: Brown / Rogers / Whitner/ Goldson / Culliver
ST: Akers / Lee
(Edge over Carolina: OL / DL / LB / DB/ ST)

 

Denver Broncos: 15 (including Kicker/Punter)

QB: The Golden Calf of Bristol

RB: McGahee

WR: Thomas / Decker

TE: None

O-Line: Clady / Franklin

D-Line: Dumervil

LB: Miller / Williams

DB: Bailey / Dawkins / Moore / Harris

ST: Prater / Colquitt

(Edge over Carolina: LB / DB / ST)

 



#45 AceBoogie

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 07:19 PM

Difference here is the investment of picks and years in the league.


Armanti has been around now for what 4? years? and has done what? He was a second round pick with a multipick investment. That level of investment has to equate to performance on the field. At this point the only way for him to not be a bust is to have a Randall Cobb level impact on the field.

Norman was a 5th round pick investment thrown into a starting job while being a known project. His leash is much much longer. Everyone is so down about him last season because they artificially built him up based on HuddleHype.


Has Armanti really had a chance? I think he's finally getting that chance and making the most of it. Switching positions isn't easy.

#46 Kurb

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 07:31 PM

Has Armanti really had a chance? I think he's finally getting that chance and making the most of it. Switching positions isn't easy.


IMO he has.

Maybe a betterbquestion is why hasn't he taken better advantage of his oppritunities.

#47 Cyberjag

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 07:59 PM

I have two things to say about all of this.  And I'm in the mood to type, so the TL/DR message is that Hurney didn't totally suck, he wasn't ever great on his own, and we have the playmakers to be successful.

 

For a couple of years I worked out with some guys who had the good fortune to be professional athletes.  Ok, I didn't work out with them, I happened to be in the box at the same time as they were, and did my best to keep up.  But in that time, we had a lot of really good conversations.  And one thing I took away from their wisdom is how professional sports work.  And it's simple.

 

You have your stars.  And you have your guys who take the field so the stars can show what they can do.

 

This is especially evident in baseball, where a typical team has two or three guys (pitchers excluded) who dominate, and five or six who take the field and their turns at bat so the stars can shine.  It's not so evident in basketball, where again you have two or three guys, but with five playing per side it's not nearly as noticeable.

 

In football, the same principle applies.  And there are 11 players on offense and defense. 

 

Take Newton (assuming he's a star), and put him on the Jaguars.  Their offense is instantly transformed.  Put Smitty in New York and Sanchez no longer looks like the bust he is.  Insert Keuchly anywhere, and watch the defense transform.  You get it?

 

So, where do you get your stars?  Almost always, you get them in the first round.  And bitch about Hurney all you want, he tended to nail his first round picks.  And that's why the Panthers were always in the hunt in the Fox years.  Despite not having a true franchise QB (I love Jake, his is the only jersey I own, but I get it...), the Panthers of the Fox years were always relevant.  No one took us for granted, like they do now.  I believe at the bottom of my heart that had the Patriots not stolen our signals, we would have won it all in 2003.

 

Hurney and Fox were a great team.  They took over a franchise that had never had great direction and gave it an identity.  A lot of people who post here do so because of what they accomplished.  You can bitch about who got what contract, and how much money went to specific positions, but Hurney was always a cap guy and was always able to work a new deal (just like Gettleman was able to get out from under Hurney's "mess"--give me a break) to make salary cap room.  Those complaints don't even register to me.

 

So anyway, when Fox was in his last year, we had Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, Gamble, and Kalil.  Forget everyone else, they're irrelevant.  And quit bitching about a youth movement--we lost Tyler-freaking-Brayton.  Are you really crying about that?  Na'il Diggs?  Really?  Smitty and company were our stars, and the rest is all -meh- as far as big-time talent is concerned. 

 

Our biggest loss?  Julius Peppers.  And he was the biggest mindfug that Hurney had ever had to deal with.  Imagine, a player who just didn't want to be in Hurney's beloved Carolina...  And the biggest issue?  Coaching.  I have a position that people here may hate to acknowledge, but Trgovac was better than Meeks.  Sorry, it's true.  So why did we have Meeks?  And why were we stuck with Davidson?  It was because Fox couldn't hire anyone for longer than a year.  Sound familiar?

 

So anyway, Peppers wants out, Hurney panics, and deals a first rounder for Everette-freaking-Brown.  Yeah, some Huddlers thought it was good at the time, but you don't ever replace a freak like Peppers with someone who unexpectedly slips out of the first round.  I give him a pass for the Otah trade because we were in win-now mode and actually did, but for the first time, Hurney started drafting for need instead of going for BPA.

 

2-14 and the first overall pick later, Hurney takes Cam Newton.  Yay.

 

Now we have Newton, Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, Gamble, and Kalil.  And Ron Rivera is the coach.  And the Hurney/Rivera collaboration gets us in a position to draft Keuchly, so now we have Newton, Keuchly, Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, Gamble, and Kalil.  But Beason and Kalil go down, and Hurney doesn't know why we're losing, so now we have Gettleman/Rivera instead of Hurney/Rivera calling the shots.

 

Want to know what I want to believe?  I want to believe that Rivera offered to help Gettleman just like he helped Hurney.  And just like Fox helped Hurney.  And I want to believe that Gettleman said, "Hey, thanks Ron.  Can you go get me a snow cone?  I have a draft to run here and can't leave the phone."  Because I think that the putrid drafting that we've had in the past few years started because Hurney began going for need, and then he was influenced by Rivera instead of Fox (who's introduction in Denver coincided with early round draft success, fwiw).

 

So now we have Newton, Keuchly, Star, Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, and Kalil.  And over the past couple of years, Johnson and Hardy have emerged.  If we can;t do something with that, then it's all on Rivera, and not on Hurney or Gettleman or Fox or Richardson.  We have our studs, and we have our JAGs to play along side them. 

 

It's time to win.

 



#48 panthers55

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 08:06 PM

Yea, you're making excuses to why we sucked and still suck as of today.
Who did we cut? Some aging vets.

All Harbaugh did was drafted Aldon Smith and revolutionized Alex Smith. They were a talented team playing "bad" under a "bad head coach" before Harbaugh arrived. Similar to us in 2011 when RR arrived and still today. We always had talents but Rivera can't do crap. Just like how he and Chud abandoned the running game even when that was the main source. A good coach find ways within the team and plays to it's strength, i.e. Harbaugh.

2011 we had "talents". 2012 we had talents. And even today we have talents. It all comes down to the HC!!!

We are a "win now" team. We are capable of winning 11-12 games this season. We are a potential "playoffs" team today. Anyone who can't see that like you are just blind and making excuses!!! The only thing that is going to stop us is "RIVERA". If he can grow some damn nuts, the sky is the limit for us.

( and you really want me to start comparing our players in 2011 to SF/Denver? Don't fool yourself )

No one is denigrating Harbaugh or taking anything away from him. He did a good job with the talent he had and really did help Alex Smith.  You would expect that being a former quarterback and a guy who is offensive minded. But the area where he had much more talent was on the defensive side. Alex Smith was and is a game manager who can score points and not screw up.  It is the defense that makes San Fran such a great team.  Something that we didn't have nearly as much talent.

 

As much as you want it to be all Rivera's fault, you are grasping at straws and everyone knows it but you.

 

As for being a win-now team, the term typically means the window is closing and you have to win now or your run is over.  That applies to teams like Denver with Manning who has maybe 2 years left.  Not a team with a new GM and a franchise quarterback who is 25 years  old.

 

The reality is you have no leg to stand on and you are fooling no one. 



#49 panthers55

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 08:50 PM

I have two things to say about all of this.  And I'm in the mood to type, so the TL/DR message is that Hurney didn't totally suck, he wasn't ever great on his own, and we have the playmakers to be successful.

 

For a couple of years I worked out with some guys who had the good fortune to be professional athletes.  Ok, I didn't work out with them, I happened to be in the box at the same time as they were, and did my best to keep up.  But in that time, we had a lot of really good conversations.  And one thing I took away from their wisdom is how professional sports work.  And it's simple.

 

You have your stars.  And you have your guys who take the field so the stars can show what they can do.

 

This is especially evident in baseball, where a typical team has two or three guys (pitchers excluded) who dominate, and five or six who take the field and their turns at bat so the stars can shine.  It's not so evident in basketball, where again you have two or three guys, but with five playing per side it's not nearly as noticeable.

 

In football, the same principle applies.  And there are 11 players on offense and defense. 

 

Take Newton (assuming he's a star), and put him on the Jaguars.  Their offense is instantly transformed.  Put Smitty in New York and Sanchez no longer looks like the bust he is.  Insert Keuchly anywhere, and watch the defense transform.  You get it?

 

So, where do you get your stars?  Almost always, you get them in the first round.  And bitch about Hurney all you want, he tended to nail his first round picks.  And that's why the Panthers were always in the hunt in the Fox years.  Despite not having a true franchise QB (I love Jake, his is the only jersey I own, but I get it...), the Panthers of the Fox years were always relevant.  No one took us for granted, like they do now.  I believe at the bottom of my heart that had the Patriots not stolen our signals, we would have won it all in 2003.

 

Hurney and Fox were a great team.  They took over a franchise that had never had great direction and gave it an identity.  A lot of people who post here do so because of what they accomplished.  You can bitch about who got what contract, and how much money went to specific positions, but Hurney was always a cap guy and was always able to work a new deal (just like Gettleman was able to get out from under Hurney's "mess"--give me a break) to make salary cap room.  Those complaints don't even register to me.

 

So anyway, when Fox was in his last year, we had Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, Gamble, and Kalil.  Forget everyone else, they're irrelevant.  And quit bitching about a youth movement--we lost Tyler-freaking-Brayton.  Are you really crying about that?  Na'il Diggs?  Really?  Smitty and company were our stars, and the rest is all -meh- as far as big-time talent is concerned. 

 

Our biggest loss?  Julius Peppers.  And he was the biggest mindfug that Hurney had ever had to deal with.  Imagine, a player who just didn't want to be in Hurney's beloved Carolina...  And the biggest issue?  Coaching.  I have a position that people here may hate to acknowledge, but Trgovac was better than Meeks.  Sorry, it's true.  So why did we have Meeks?  And why were we stuck with Davidson?  It was because Fox couldn't hire anyone for longer than a year.  Sound familiar?

 

So anyway, Peppers wants out, Hurney panics, and deals a first rounder for Everette-freaking-Brown.  Yeah, some Huddlers thought it was good at the time, but you don't ever replace a freak like Peppers with someone who unexpectedly slips out of the first round.  I give him a pass for the Otah trade because we were in win-now mode and actually did, but for the first time, Hurney started drafting for need instead of going for BPA.

 

2-14 and the first overall pick later, Hurney takes Cam Newton.  Yay.

 

Now we have Newton, Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, Gamble, and Kalil.  And Ron Rivera is the coach.  And the Hurney/Rivera collaboration gets us in a position to draft Keuchly, so now we have Newton, Keuchly, Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, Gamble, and Kalil.  But Beason and Kalil go down, and Hurney doesn't know why we're losing, so now we have Gettleman/Rivera instead of Hurney/Rivera calling the shots.

 

Want to know what I want to believe?  I want to believe that Rivera offered to help Gettleman just like he helped Hurney.  And just like Fox helped Hurney.  And I want to believe that Gettleman said, "Hey, thanks Ron.  Can you go get me a snow cone?  I have a draft to run here and can't leave the phone."  Because I think that the putrid drafting that we've had in the past few years started because Hurney began going for need, and then he was influenced by Rivera instead of Fox (who's introduction in Denver coincided with early round draft success, fwiw).

 

So now we have Newton, Keuchly, Star, Smitty, Stewart, Williams, Beason, Gross, and Kalil.  And over the past couple of years, Johnson and Hardy have emerged.  If we can;t do something with that, then it's all on Rivera, and not on Hurney or Gettleman or Fox or Richardson.  We have our studs, and we have our JAGs to play along side them. 

 

It's time to win.

Don't agree that it only takes a handful of guys to be successful. You  won't have 22 stars or first rounders but for example there are 5 guys on the offensive line and when two are not good, you have an average to crappy line.  When you have a star in Smith and no other receiver that can stretch the field you can easy take him away if no one else can make them pay.  Last year  we had all the stars you mentioned except for star and Kalil who was hurt and yet went 7-9.  All Rivera's fault??  Way too pat.  Our secondary sucked and our run defense up the middle was awful. Enough to cause us to lose a ton of games in the fourth quarter.   What you totally downplay is that while not everyone is a star they all need to be competent and capable of making plays.  Take away Olsen and LaFell and Smitty does little to nothing.  Take away D. Edwards and Short and teams will run over the tackle all day and when Hardy pinches in, they run around the end all day long.  With our secondary, teams have and will be throwing all day unless some guys step up and while not stars play like ones.  Those other players are not stars but they aren't just guys.

 

And the biggest elephant in the room is that you blame Rivera if our teams underperforms and ignore the only guys that actually control everything that happens on the field.  The players themselves. Why  is it all Rivera's fault if Newton throws a pick late in the game which the other team runs backs for a pick six.  If the secondary blows some coverages, it is Rivera's fault???  If special teams screws up and gives up 2 TDs, it is Rivera's fault???  Sure you can say that that the coach had something to do with it and might even need to be replaced but so do some of those players.  The coaches job is to put the players in position to make  plays but it is the players job to actually execute. Coachess surely matter but so does the talent on the team.

 

So what happens if a few of those stars get hurt??  Yeah, we need other guys who can step up and play as well or almost as well as those stars.  You expect that from just guys?? If Smitty goes down and Johnson hurts his back again than guys like Alexander are going to have to be more than just guys. Because they play in unglamourous  roles or are backups they may not be stars but they better be competent and able to start in the league. When Beason went down Luke wasn't a star but he played like one and is one now.  If he didn't, we would have been much worse than we were. 

 

You need stars at all the key positions, you need a bunch of other guys who can assume a starting role and play well if needed and be solid in the rotation, you need good depth or luck with injuries, you need schemes which take advantage of the players you have, you need good coaching and you need some luck.

Truth is that every team has 7 or 8 stars so why isn't everyone a playoff team??  All coaching??  Nah. It takes far more than 7 or 8 studs to consistently win.



#50 FattyFatFat

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 08:53 PM

And people cry that its cam's fault that we don't win.


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