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Zod

What Seahawks fans are saying...

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You contradict yourself, you point out how much less experience Cam has and then suggest that Wilson works harder? 

 

Huh? Experience and work ethic are not the same in any way,

 

Cam had to make the transition from a no-huddle spread option offense to the NFL without the benefit of a full offseason his rookie year and he won OROY in the process but there's a problem with his work ethic?

 

I did? Where? Copy and paste the specific quote. I drew a comparison. I did not say Cam was lazy, I said Wilson prepares more. Whether that means Wilson is a 10 and Cam a 5 or Wilson off the charts and Cam also off the charts, but not quite as far off as Wilson is not a distinction I have made. He's your QB: How satisfied are you?

Wilson meanwhile came from a pro-style offense, in-fact he got a chance to learn the WCO at Wisconsin before he was drafted to Seattle, so if anything Cam's success is evidence that he's had to work much harder than Wilson if we're going to make assumptions.

 

Nope. Not much difference between a lockout season and a three-way share of snaps. BTW, ALL QBs that year had to deal with that, not just Cam. And, as said elsewhere, Cam never had to fight for his job. Wilson could have come in and assumed he'd be the 2nd or 3rd QB, behind a 5M/yr QB, but he came in and took the starting job, never doubting he would. If you think being anointed is harder than having to go take a job from the 3rd string position, I'm going to have to disagree with you. And Wilson did that at Wisconsin and Seattle.

 

Want to call it equal? Fine by me. This is a very, very minor part of the analysis, regardless.

 

I know what Wilson is as a QB and I respect him... based on your attempt to compare passer rating and completion % it's clear I have a better understanding of what Wilson is and what he's asked to do in your offense than you have of what Cam is and what he's asked to do in our offense.  

 

Perhaps. But completion % is a stat the QB has the most control over. When you read about Cam, his accuracy is stated as something he's needed to improve on. He's yet to break 60%. Wilson hit 64% in 2012. Are you going on record claiming Cam is as accurate as Wilson when he never has been, not in college, not in the pros? I have ALWAYS thought yards is the least important metric for QBs, offenses and defenses, so it's not just about this comparison.

 

Bottom line, Cam is a much less experienced QB in a pro-style system (which you correctly pointed out) who is being asked to make much more difficult and high-risk throws based on our scheme.

 

This has a significant impact on any stat you can come up with, so it's an apples/oranges comparison. If we were running a WCO than you could perform a direct comparison. 

 

This is a good point to explore, and I think you have the wrong angle in it. What you are claiming is we can never analyze QBs on anything at all because they all play in different systems. No. You have to tease out what the stats mean within their systems. One point you are leaving out is that Cam's system has been weighted toward his skill set. The Seahawks did not have to do that with Wilson because he has no weakness and/or one skill area that is significantly better than the others. Perfectly balanced in being excellent in all of them. His one weakness is that he can tend to be high orlong on the deep ball, but he still threw a lot of 40 and 50-yard balls last season.

 

Wilson makes all the throws. There is nothing he can't throw and nothing he avoids throwing. But, he protects the ball, hence 10 INTs (five were drops; don't know how many of Cam's were drops.) This is about decision-making and is more indicative of the development of the QB than perhaps any other measure when you factor out drops. (Football Outsiders does this, I think. You might explore their stuff.)

 

Wilson consistently chooses the long view over the short. Last season, for example, in the last game he had a choice on a TD: Toss it to the TE and get the rookie record for TDs all to himself, or give the team the safest shot at the TD and run it in. He ran it in. Both were fairly certain TDs, but the running TD was just a little safer, so that's what he did.

 

The INTs aren't about system, it's about accuracy and decision-making. Wilson was more accurate in college and in the pros. Heck, he tossed a 72 or 74% completion rate at Wisconsin! Rodgers and Brady throw the ball all day long and have very low INT numbers. Neither had a decent run game last year and it didn't matter.

 

Cam's the better overall athlete, Wilson the better QB. That's just where they stand right now. It's up to Cam whether he can become the better of the two by being an equal QB and still be the better athlete.

 

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K hawk seems to forget where wilson played most of his college ball. Most of us have seen him play longer than k hawk has even known he existed

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K hawk seems to forget where wilson played most of his college ball. Most of us have seen him play longer than k hawk has even known he existed

 

 

 

Yeah, kinda surprises me, too, what some of your fans *don't* know about Wilson.

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Not that any of you guys need to get any more excited for Sunday, but here's a little vid I made for the occasion. Enjoy!

 

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You contradict yourself, you point out how much less experience Cam has and then suggest that Wilson works harder? 
 
Huh? Experience and work ethic are not the same in any way,
 
You suggested Wilson works harder than Cam while pointing out how much more NFL ready Wilson was, so any reasonable person could conclude that Cam has had to work harder than Wilson to get where he is at this point. Fact is, I don't know how hard either of them have worked and neither do you... but I gave some very specific examples of how hard Cam has worked to make the transition. 
 
Cam had to make the transition from a no-huddle spread option offense to the NFL without the benefit of a full offseason his rookie year and he won OROY in the process but there's a problem with his work ethic?
 
I did? Where? Copy and paste the specific quote. I drew a comparison. I did not say Cam was lazy, I said Wilson prepares more. Whether that means Wilson is a 10 and Cam a 5 or Wilson off the charts and Cam also off the charts, but not quite as far off as Wilson is not a distinction I have made. He's your QB: How satisfied are you?
 
Any way you want to parse it, you suggested Wilson has a better work ethic than Cam and I'd love to hear what you're basing that notion on since you seem so certain of it? 
 
Wilson meanwhile came from a pro-style offense, in-fact he got a chance to learn the WCO at Wisconsin before he was drafted to Seattle, so if anything Cam's success is evidence that he's had to work much harder than Wilson if we're going to make assumptions.
 
Nope. Not much difference between a lockout season and a three-way share of snaps. BTW, ALL QBs that year had to deal with that, not just Cam. And, as said elsewhere, Cam never had to fight for his job. Wilson could have come in and assumed he'd be the 2nd or 3rd QB, behind a 5M/yr QB, but he came in and took the starting job, never doubting he would. If you think being anointed is harder than having to go take a job from the 3rd string position, I'm going to have to disagree with you. And Wilson did that at Wisconsin and Seattle.
 
Want to call it equal? Fine by me. This is a very, very minor part of the analysis, regardless.
 
Not much difference between being handed a playbook and then locked out of the facilities and forbidden to communicate with the coaches vs. having full access to the facilities, coaching staff and OTA's, mini-camp, etc??? LOL!!! Cam had to prove himself worthy of the opening day job by his performance in training camp after having almost no access to the facilities or coaching staff and he had to do this as the # 1 overall pick on a 2-14 team with a historically bad offense while the whole world was praying for him to fail - no pressure there! 
 
I know what Wilson is as a QB and I respect him... based on your attempt to compare passer rating and completion % it's clear I have a better understanding of what Wilson is and what he's asked to do in your offense than you have of what Cam is and what he's asked to do in our offense.  
 
Perhaps. But completion % is a stat the QB has the most control over. When you read about Cam, his accuracy is stated as something he's needed to improve on. He's yet to break 60%. Wilson hit 64% in 2012. Are you going on record claiming Cam is as accurate as Wilson when he never has been, not in college, not in the pros? I have ALWAYS thought yards is the least important metric for QBs, offenses and defenses, so it's not just about this comparison.
 
Completion % is an important stat, but it MUST be viewed through the lense of what a QB is being asked to do. Like I said before, a decent WCO QB will always have a higher completion % just by virtue of the scheme, which is designed to minimize risk and maximize scoring opportunities by getting the ball into the hands of a playmaker as quickly as possible and waiting for the defense to make mistakes. The vertical offense Cam's been running from day 1 is the antithesis of the WCO and it puts a much greater burden on the QB. You're attempting a direct comparison using stats, so here's I stat I haven't seen you mention:  Cam had 517 passing attempts his rookie year while Wilson had only 393, so Cam was asked to throw the ball 124 more times than Wilson in his rookie year - ignoring the vast difference in scheme, is this a comparable sample size? Cam was asked to throw the ball 480 times in 2012, so that's only a difference of 
 
Bottom line, Cam is a much less experienced QB in a pro-style system (which you correctly pointed out) who is being asked to make much more difficult and high-risk throws based on our scheme.
 
This has a significant impact on any stat you can come up with, so it's an apples/oranges comparison. If we were running a WCO than you could perform a direct comparison. 
 
This is a good point to explore, and I think you have the wrong angle in it. What you are claiming is we can never analyze QBs on anything at all because they all play in different systems. No. You have to tease out what the stats mean within their systems. One point you are leaving out is that Cam's system has been weighted toward his skill set. The Seahawks did not have to do that with Wilson because he has no weakness and/or one skill area that is significantly better than the others. Perfectly balanced in being excellent in all of them. His one weakness is that he can tend to be high orlong on the deep ball, but he still threw a lot of 40 and 50-yard balls last season.
 
You can attempt the comparison, but it has to be viewed in consideration of what the QB is being asked to do and in this case the offense Cam is running is the antithesis of the offense Wilson is running so it's an especially difficult comparison, especially when you want to start talking about completion %. You recall that The Golden Calf of Bristol had a high completion % and a excellent TD/INT ratio during his time in Denver, I'm not comparing Wilson to The Golden Calf of Bristol just giving an example of how stats can be heavily skewed by what the QB is being asked to do and how often he's being asked to do it. 
 
Wilson makes all the throws. There is nothing he can't throw and nothing he avoids throwing. But, he protects the ball, hence 10 INTs (five were drops; don't know how many of Cam's were drops.) This is about decision-making and is more indicative of the development of the QB than perhaps any other measure when you factor out drops. (Football Outsiders does this, I think. You might explore their stuff.)
 
Wilson can spin it, no doubt... but the fact is that he's a WCO QB so he's playing in a system that is designed to simplify reads and minimize exposure to mistakes. You're also counting  Wilson's 10 INT's on 393 passing attempts vs. Cam's 12 INT's on 485 passing attempts in '12. This is an extremely flawed comparison. 
 
Wilson consistently chooses the long view over the short. Last season, for example, in the last game he had a choice on a TD: Toss it to the TE and get the rookie record for TDs all to himself, or give the team the safest shot at the TD and run it in. He ran it in. Both were fairly certain TDs, but the running TD was just a little safer, so that's what he did.
 
So you were inside Wilson's head when he made this decision? You could just as easily say he was being a glory hound by running it in himself instead of passing it. 
 
The INTs aren't about system, it's about accuracy and decision-making. Wilson was more accurate in college and in the pros. Heck, he tossed a 72 or 74% completion rate at Wisconsin! Rodgers and Brady throw the ball all day long and have very low INT numbers. Neither had a decent run game last year and it didn't matter.
 
Again you are comparison Wilson's completion % in a WCO offense to Cam's in a spread-option (against SEC competition). You do realize the vast difference between these offensive schemes, right? RIGHT? 
 
Cam's the better overall athlete, Wilson the better QB. That's just where they stand right now. It's up to Cam whether he can become the better of the two by being an equal QB and still be the better athlete.

 

Cam is the better athlete AND the better QB when you consider what he's being asked to do. In addition, we really need to see what year 2 looks like for Wilson before we can draw any conclusions about how good he is, for all we know we've seen the best he has to offer and now teams will start exposing his weaknesses and he won't be able to overcome them. Cam passed this test last year with flying colors, he emerged from this make or break phase playing the best football of his career. You should hope Wilson survives it as well as Cam did. 

 

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But since K-Hawk wants to compare Wilson's 10 INT's on 393 passing attempts to Cam's 12 INT's on 485 passing attempts as evidence of Wilson's superior QB skills, here we go: 

 

  • Wilson average one interception every 39 passing attempts. 
  • Cam averaged an interception every 40 passing attempts. 

 

So wow, you really nailed me on that one. 

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Cam's rookie season is widely considered the best, all time, among QB's.

Wilson played well, as a game manager, with the #1 scoring D in the league.

Cam came out of a spread option offense, during a lockout, and ran away with Rookie of the Year running a highly complex offense while NEVER wearing any kind of aid.

Yep, Wilson was better.

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Cam's rookie season is widely considered the best, all time, among QB's.

Wilson played well, as a game manager, with the #1 scoring D in the league.

Cam came out of a spread option offense, during a lockout, and ran away with Rookie of the Year running a highly complex offense while NEVER wearing any kind of aid.

Yep, Wilson was better.

 

Stop introducing facts into this discussion... LOL

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It's funny how we saw no Seagull fans on this board before last years game. Maybe one or two.

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