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What (if anything) should a civilized society provide its citizens?


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#16 stirs

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 04:31 PM

The gov should provide

Freedom

Protection

Equality and Access

Flat Tax or Fair Tax that cannot be manipulated

Education opportunities, whether public or private with everyone getting to go where the best education for their kids is offered

 

Should not provide

 

Anything beyond the basic needs program for food and shelter

 

 

 

 



#17 PhillyB

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 04:42 PM

Equality and Access

 

what elements of society do you propose all citizens have equal access to?



#18 stirs

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 05:55 PM

what elements of society do you propose all citizens have equal access to?

 

It is primarily for non discrimination.

 

I don't think we want to go that far down the road to where we discuss access vs outcome.

 

Part of living here would be for each person to know that their decisions could not only have an effect on them, but their kids, grand kids, etc.

 

This would go for good and bad decisions.



#19 carpantherfan84

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 06:28 PM

LMAO, RIDICULOUSNESS.
 
Truly the Theatre of the Absurd.  In America we are sooo blessed that we have the luxury to complain about how blessed we are as a nation. Truly boggles the mind.
 
"Only those that possess would seek to limit the possessions of others."
 
 
 
But i'll play along. What is the definition of government? That is what it boils down to.  This question will be answered differently by each and every citizen. This is partly because education varies from person to person, partly because circumstances vary and partly because of culture. However, in truth there is no correct answer for this definition as the word itself is ambiguous. The term "to govern" is essentially "to control" and thus leads us all to answer at what point and to whom are we to give CONTROL. How much CONTROL are we to give up over our lives? 
 
So in America it is seriously baffling to try and ponder the situation we have wrought upon ourselves. And believe me, the citizenry has no one to blame but ourselves.  We have given ourselves the choice of two masters.  Each threatening that the other wishes to CONTROL our lives, yet neither relinquishing CONTROL over our minds.  We have been given the choice, red or blue. No purple. No pink. No gray. No brown, black or white. You are either left or right. Silly constraints willfully placed on an uninterested populace.  And what are our choices you may ask? Do we give up CONTROL of our morals, or our money.   Our beliefs or our endeavors. But always, ALWAYS over our minds. 
 
The left would have you believe that any and all actions regardless of moral implications should be left up to free choice. Consequence is not a relevant concern. Things like drugs and abortions are necessary factors of society and Utopia can be achieved through communal sharing of wealth regardless of contribution.
 
The right would have you believe that morality is duty of citizenry. That those that do not share the popular "traditional" way of thinking are to be beaten into submission. Wealth is a thing to be horded, and those that do not possess must be the worker for those that do.
 
Yet what they both have in common is CONTROL. To choose one is to shun the other. There is no common ground between these ideals. The dichotomy is so strong that average everyday citizens who normally care only a passing fancy for world politics will go after each other tooth and claw if their chosen side is threatened.  The CONTROL is truly total.
 
 
I believe the OP attempted to seek out dialogue that may help shed light on philosophical question of at what point does a society become too large, or rather unable to sustain itself without oversight, intervention and guidance.  However, like always this has and will continue to devolve into political theatre because for some reason we seem to default to protecting the CONTROL placed on our lives.
 
 
So as my sermon comes to a close, I will give my opinion based on my interpretation of the original question.  I think there are two essential goals for a society. The growth of the whole, and the growth of the individual. Social interaction is a biological desire of a social species. This means that no matter what, we as a species will seek out the group and commune as a whole. But our minds are complex and the desire to succeed, to advance and to rule is perhaps an equal if not an even stronger drive.  Our societies must be equally complex as our desires are strong.  The common good is an undeniable necessity for social harmony but since the common good is an undefinable term in a species that has free will it may be an unattainable endeavor. 
 
In my opinion things like the education of our youth is a first and foremost responsibility of anyone charged with CONTROLING so complex society.  This does not necessarily extend to the upperlevel education but for the youth, e.g. elementary/middle school, education should be the most important goal of those at the HIGHEST levels.
 
 
Next should be right to life.  This extends to many factors of a society of our size that a less developed society would not face.  Namely health care, law enforcement, resource protection etc... This once again must be handled at the highest levels since all levels benefit and contribute.
 
The last thing is specific to American Capitalism. I believe that the fact that there are other ways of living in a society is lost on most Americans, . But basically the last thing is the protection and proliferation of infrastructure.  In our society this is specifically the roads and railways; the REGULATION and growth of commerce (not necessarily businesses themselves); and the standing up, maintenance and deployment of a SUCCESSFUL military.

 

 

 

The problem is now how do we make this happen...



#20 Disinfranchised

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 06:32 PM

Another good question is what % of our money should we pay for services?  "society provide" means we all chip in for.  Saw a girl last night on tv said she would give up 50% . When I first started paying I was promised government perfection for much,much less. They keep asking for a bigger piece of the action. And I am not wealthy.



#21 GOOGLE RON PAUL

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:29 PM

"i don't need no government in a complex state level society" is one of the single biggest follies i have ever seen propagated in public sentiment.

 

if people would stop framing the question as "government or not government" and instead frame it "to what extent government" we'd be doing a lot better as far as national dialogue is concerned

 

i dont need no government except for all of the times that i do

 

the bulk of americans are simply going to argue for vague things like "liberty" and "property", as you've seen in this very thread. but what they mean by "liberty" and "property" is a government that caters only to their needs.

 

e: look no further than my signature for one of the biggest proponents of this "fug you got mine protect my property at all costs but just conveniently forget that if it wasn't for centuries of theft and forced labor, i would have nothing 'american' to 'own'"



#22 CarolinaCoolin

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 01:52 PM

Ugh

#23 PhillyB

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 05:55 PM

Ugh

 

what?



#24 davos

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:10 PM

to answer the title...

 

-Beef Jerky/Sunflower Seed gift packages once a month

-Free Porterhouses (Pittsburgh-rare) prepared by Gordon Ramsay in-person 3 times a year 

-Free southern tier oak aged unearthly IPAs on game day

-Free Bloody May Sundays

-health insurance

-consistent & distant distraction wars

-Liberty, freedoms and dontchaknow



#25 TANTRIC-NINJA

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:33 AM

All make good points but I would throw out Gov should provide: Battle Axes and chainsaws for when we have to do battle in the Thunderdome that Obamacare is sending all of us to according to the crazies.

#26 g5jamz

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:55 AM

Your question is asking what services should be provided, but ignoring the costs.

 

Absolutely no discussion of cost vs. services.  There are basics that government should provide.  Security from outside threats (national defense).  Protection of private property (law enforcement).  Equal protection under the law. 

 

Just a few, but beyond there you have to consider the costs. 



#27 Bronn

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:39 AM

I'm not entirely sure I follow all of what you're asking, PhillyB, but...

To me, a civilized society is one in which all parties are valued equally as citizens, regardless of material wealth, political and spiritual ideologies, gender, or race. The opinions of each citizen should carry equal weight in the decisions of the collective, and none of the aforementioned things are a consideration when assigning value to those opinions.

 

The problem with this concept, to me at least, is that people are selfish, greedy creatures who will never be able to put themselves aside and/or compromise to be a true part of civilization.

 

In my perfect world, the only things I would expect of the civilization would be:

1. Safety from those that would cause harm - foreign and domestic - economical and physical... This does not mean going out and provoking and creating enemies based on special interests or under the veil of "allied support"

 

2. Protection of the environment in which the civilization exists - Can't have a civilization without an environment - Focus on renewable resources and not finite ones

 

3. Equal and free/low cost education and training programs that enable all the citizens to be productive/contributing members of the society

 

4. A living wage, paired with a low cost of living - Basically wage equality

 

5. Low cost/free healthcare

 

6. Equal financial obligation to the society based on wage/wealth accumulation equality - There is no "burden" or poor class in a civilized society, and there are certainly none that hoard/receive disgusting amounts of wealth, either

 

7. Independence, with due process, in which one felt the civilization was no longer serving the previous expectations.



#28 Panthro

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:46 AM

I wonder how we ever survived as a nation the first oh, close to 150 years without a federal income tax?

 

On slaves



#29 stirs

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 05:49 PM

Whatever it takes to get their vote!!



#30 venom

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:41 AM

Government in a civilized society should provide a set of societal parameters so that the masses will be accommodated with the basic necessities of survival, ensuring that each and every one of us are working on a level playing field in the pursuit of our dreams and passions.


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