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Is God omnipotent?


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#16 NanuqoftheNorth

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 02:51 PM

This is a test of religious faith, are you willing to believe something that is in direct conflict with reality?

 

Believe the apple is blue and your world of religious dogma and sense of well being persists unabated.

 

Believe your lying eyes that the apple is red and your world of religious dogma starts to crumble, creating internal conflicts and emotional anguish.

 

The religious cult you have been associated with since you were a child, your friends and family, believe the apple is blue. 

 

Who are you to question it? 

 

Take the path of least resistance, deny reality.



#17 FirstRoundPick

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 02:53 PM

I am not sure if you are referring to the fact that bad things happen even though there is a loving and caring God, or if you are referring to the existence of God.

If it is the latter, the analogy doesn't really work because you can just pick am apple and show it to everyone and they will know it is red. God's existence can't be proven or disproven so you can't show the world he simply doesn't exist, therefore it falls on what you believe personally.

To build on the analogy, it would have to exist sometime in the future where apples and pictures of apples no longer exist, and you have to prove apples are red despite the fact that one has never been seen. And also consider counter evidence that apples were actually blue. Then it would be up to the person looking at the evidence to believe if apples were red or blue.

 

The Earth is billions of years old, carbon dating says so.

 

Christain :  Lalalala....My bible says it is 6000...God said so.

 

The Earth couldnt have 7 billion population from 2 people in the period of 6000 years.  Not to mention the genocides. 

 

Christain:  Lalalaa...I cant hear you over the sound of how good God is.    



#18 CarolinaCoolin

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 03:34 PM

Maybe it's because I don't live down south like most of you but I've never met a person of faith arguing that the earth is in fact 6000 years old. They all have the same understanding the earth is billions of years old and we didn't come from Adam and Eve.

#19 CarolinaCoolin

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 03:35 PM

The Earth is billions of years old, carbon dating says so.

Christain : Lalalala....My bible says it is 6000...God said so.

The Earth couldnt have 7 billion population from 2 people in the period of 6000 years. Not to mention the genocides.

Christain: Lalalaa...I cant hear you over the sound of how good God is.

Believing the earth is billions of years old and being a person of faith/believing in God aren't mutually exclusive.

FYI you sound arrogant as fug

#20 Matthias

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 03:58 PM

Is God omnipotent?

 

I think no.  I will provide an example from scripture to support this as from the rationalist's standpoint I think any claim to omnipotence is quickly dismissed even before existence.

 

This verse from the bible shows that even the Hebrews did not think Yahweh was omnipotent:

 

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.  (Judges 1:19).

 

Even with Yahweh's assistance Judah and Yahweh are defeated by men with iron chariots.  Not exactly impressive for a being that supposedly flooded the entire planet and magically murdered an entire generation of first born children.

 

Arguably we could say that this also shows God is not omniscient as if he were they would have known of this outcome and not wasted the time losing to the men with iron chariots.

 

So is God (who exists for the purpose of this discussion) omnipotent or are there limits to his power/skill/knowledge?

 

 

Just something to be understood.  Later on in the same book, we see Israel (with God) take out Sisera's army, who had 900 chariots of iron.  Early on in Judges, we see the people failing to take the land as God commanded, and God is displeased with their resolve.  So He doesn't Himself drive all the Canaanites out, but let them remain in the land to become a thorn in the Israelites backside.  You could say of course this is just my reasoning, but from the way the text reads (and I'm talking that whole first chapter, not just the verse in question) and comparing it to other text, it was the people who were afraid of the chariots of iron.  God told the people to remove the Canaanites from the land, and He was with them for that purpose.  So the people were afraid of the chariots, and they didn't force the people out of the valley.



#21 googoodan

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 04:05 PM

during the dusk of my adherence to christian fundamentalism i noticed a distinct trend in the church towards answering questions like these: an insistence that the number one thing and believer has to realize is that God is good. If you believe that God is good and loves you unconditionally and has your best interests at heart, it will make everything that happens easier to understand. but you MUST believe this. it is the key to understanding.

preacher: "God is good..."

congregation: "ALL OF THE TIME!"

preacher: "amen!"


it isn't much more than a sticking-into-the-ears of fingers and la-la-la-i-can't-hear-you-ing when confronted with an unpalatable suggestion that demands an answer. it's like believing apples are blue: when someone observes that apples are in fact not blue and brings it up, you tell everyone that believes that apples are blue that as long as you believe apples are blue, then everything will be ok, but you must believe that they are blue no matter what, or everything will fall apart, and your belief will overcome the doubt of skeptics.


Seriously.... what church did you go to?

#22 PhillyB

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 04:09 PM

I am not sure if you are referring to the fact that bad things happen even though there is a loving and caring God, or if you are referring to the existence of God.

 

definitely the former. i'm not arguing against the existence of a deity here, simply questions regarding the nature of this deity as constructed theologically by establishment christian belief systems



#23 PhillyB

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 04:11 PM

Seriously.... what church did you go to?

 

mainstream evangelical churches all across the u.s. (ohio, colorado, new york, minnesota, north carolina, florida, maryland, vermont)

 

the church i attended up until very very recently was pretty damn progressive in a lot of ways for an organization affiliated with the southern baptists, to the point of being accused of liberal influence, but still serves as one of the primary examples from which i am drawing these quotes and experiences.



#24 googoodan

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 04:21 PM

mainstream evangelical churches all across the u.s. (ohio, colorado, new york, minnesota, north carolina, florida, maryland, vermont)

the church i attended up until very very recently was pretty damn progressive in a lot of ways for an organization affiliated with the southern baptists, to the point of being accused of liberal influence, but still serves as one of the primary examples from which i am drawing these quotes and experiences.

though I agree that many churches stray from biblical teachings, I have yet to meet a pastor who couldn't answer such simple questions.
I would like to.

#25 FirstRoundPick

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 04:23 PM

Believing the earth is billions of years old and being a person of faith/believing in God aren't mutually exclusive.

FYI you sound arrogant as fug

  Lalala I cant hear you from the hole in my heart that hasnt been filed by God's love yet.  

 

FYI that was just one example of the red/blue apple discussion that I felt like using. 

 

FYI on a serious note, if you dont believe the Earth is 6000 years old then you probably let your voice be heard.  Some Christain groups are teaching that and are pushing for it to be taught in public schools.

 

FYI everything typed after FYI is "for your information" so it is redundant to type it, because there is an implied FYI



#26 FirstRoundPick

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 04:28 PM

Maybe it's because I don't live down south like most of you but I've never met a person of faith arguing that the earth is in fact 6000 years old. They all have the same understanding the earth is billions of years old and we didn't come from Adam and Eve.

 

Earth is 6000 years old



#27 PhillyB

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 04:49 PM

though I agree that many churches stray from biblical teachings, I have yet to meet a pastor who couldn't answer such simple questions.
I would like to.

 

which simple questions?



#28 CarolinaCoolin

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:01 PM

Lalala I cant hear you from the hole in my heart that hasnt been filed by God's love yet.

FYI that was just one example of the red/blue apple discussion that I felt like using.

FYI on a serious note, if you dont believe the Earth is 6000 years old then you probably let your voice be heard. Some Christain groups are teaching that and are pushing for it to be taught in public schools.

FYI everything typed after FYI is "for your information" so it is redundant to type it, because there is an implied FYI


Yeah way to side step the point.

Congrats on proving your arrogance though

#29 Kral

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:19 PM

Just something to be understood.  Later on in the same book, we see Israel (with God) take out Sisera's army, who had 900 chariots of iron.  Early on in Judges, we see the people failing to take the land as God commanded, and God is displeased with their resolve.  So He doesn't Himself drive all the Canaanites out, but let them remain in the land to become a thorn in the Israelites backside.  You could say of course this is just my reasoning, but from the way the text reads (and I'm talking that whole first chapter, not just the verse in question) and comparing it to other text, it was the people who were afraid of the chariots of iron.  God told the people to remove the Canaanites from the land, and He was with them for that purpose.  So the people were afraid of the chariots, and they didn't force the people out of the valley.

 

Still surely despite the fears of mere humans an omnipotent being should not be dissuaded by chariots?  If Yahweh is omnipotent then how could an army that he is with be defeated by any force not equal to his?  If the Israelites truly knew they were accompanied by the actual creator of the universe capable of doing anything and everything wouldn't they have been so emboldened as to be afraid of nothing?



#30 FirstRoundPick

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:20 PM

Yeah way to side step the point.

Congrats on proving your arrogance though

 

Im sure most people understood my point.

 

My point was an example of a religious person refusing evidence that would contradict the bible.  Just because all Christians dont say the Earth is 6000 doesnt negate the point that many do.  

 

Im not sure what you want a list of more contradictions?  Do I have to find a specific contradiction that 100% of  Christians negate(yeah right).  I mean really what do you want?




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